Walking the Talk: The Evolution of Gait Happens with Dr. Courtney Conley, DC

In this episode, we dive into the inspiring journey of Dr. Courtney Conley, the founder of Gait Happens. From starting an Instagram account on a friend's suggestion to becoming a global influencer in gait analysis, Courtney shares her experiences, challenges, and the importance of walking. Discover how her passion for foot health has transformed lives and why walking is more than just a physical activity.

Key Takeaways

• Foot health significantly impacts emotional and physical well-being.

• Footwear choices can affect gait and overall health.

• Walking is a fundamental movement that should be prioritized.

• Emotional states can be reflected in a person's gait.

• Education on foot health is essential for prevention.

• The future of gait analysis lies in integrating education and practice.

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Full Transcript

Yeah, I'm not a meanie, but yeah, I appreciate it. well, we're recording, so I'm gonna get going. And like I said, this is extremely casual. If we say something, then we need to cut it afterwards or anything. didn't, real quick before we start, I didn't get a text ba

I've been trying to keep up with what you're doing, which is probably about as impossible as you feel like it is keeping up with it yourself. But I wanted to take a few steps back instead of just diving into where you're at today. In terms of gate happens, when you...

And I'm not talking about your clinic. When you started, GATE happens in terms of social media, online education. Did you ever think it would get this big?

Courtney (01:23.488)

No, I had to be honest with you, the whole reason Gate Happens started was from a friend of mine that I used to teach with at Rock Tape, Shante. And we were, we both worked for Rock Tape and we were at an instructor summit. And she said to me, she said, you know, she's like, you really love the foot. She's like, when we get home, she's like, I want you to start an Instagram account. Cause I didn't, I didn't even have one.

Beau Beard (01:36.888)

Mm-hmm.

Courtney (01:51.352)

And she was like, just do me a favor post every single day about something that you find interesting. And I was like, well, that should be easy. Cause I love this stuff. So I got home and I was like, all right. So I was in my clinic. That's when I was working, you know, the eight to five, five days a week.

Beau Beard (02:09.934)

How many years have you been in practice at this point?

Courtney (02:12.888)

This was in 2017, I had 2016, 17. So I had been out of school for 14 years.

Beau Beard (02:22.604)

Wow, so you're just like, yeah, I'll start posting. Yeah.

Courtney (02:25.048)

I was like, I'll start. So I was busy in the clinic and then I'd get home and I promised Shantae, I was like, I'm gonna do this every day. And I was bad. Like it would take me two hours to do one post because of the spacing. that's when all the, and I had started doing it fully for the purpose of driving traffic to my brick and mortar.

Beau Beard (02:52.686)

That was one of my questions. Did you start it because you're like, I need to get educational material out there that doesn't exist or was just like, this is a marketing effort.

Courtney (03:01.036)

I was like, I enjoyed doing it. And I was like, you know, I was like, this is a really cool case study. And then I like put up this terrible video, but I thought it was really cool. And I was like, this will help, you know, the practice and it'll help bring awareness to the importance of the foot. And so that's pretty much how that started. And I was consistent for years.

Beau Beard (03:23.438)

So Gary V's advice paid off. Okay, so this thing for people who don't know, I couldn't tell you the inflection point for you. You probably know when it kind of jumped. I you had a decent following for a few years now, but there's been a point. I don't know if you would call it fame. I mean, when you're in the New York Times and you're getting on major podcasts and you're flying around the world with companies like Ultra, like what's this been like for you? Do you feel, and I,

Courtney (03:26.198)

this.

Beau Beard (03:52.526)

I'm going to ask you a question. You you be as transparent as you want. Like, do you feel like, yeah, I expected this. This is something I kind of saw my future like completely unexpected out of left field. What is going on? I'm talking about the foot or somewhere in between.

Courtney (04:06.744)

Those are such good questions. No, it was not expected at all. I was not expecting the response to be what it has been. I thought the information was really interesting. And so I guess I was hoping that other people did, but I was not expecting it to be where it is today. I have to say that it really is the people you surround yourself with.

really good at content. I love reading. I love researching. like, you know, learning new things. I am terrible at, you know, making it digestible. The business part of it, the marketing part of it. I just, that is not my, my thing at all. And so my business partner with GATE happens, Dr. Jen Perez, when she, came to work for me at THS, I said, you know, do you want to

help me with Gate Happens because I thought I could use help. And then when she came on, she was everything that I am not. And so with her kind of business acumen in my kind of creative part, we were able to expand Gate Happens. And I think the material, I think what we talk about is something that

makes sense to people. Like in my clinic, the two things I love hearing the most of, well, when I'm done with a new patient is, well, that makes sense and you've given me hope. So when people hear the importance of this stuff and how it's been neglected and how things like footwear really matter, it starts to click and they're like, well, that really makes sense to me. And so I think that message starts to get,

people can retain it and they understand it and then they tell their friend and then it just starts to expand. yeah, I feel very blessed. It's been a wild ride from when this whole thing has started. And I feel like it's growing at a very fast rate.

Beau Beard (06:23.726)

How are you, I'm curious, how are you handling that? is it, how is it changing your clinical life in terms like availability and like what, like is it just wildly different? And then, you know, what has it stirred up in your personal life as much as you want to talk about just like in time or how you're having to change things there. Cause I was just curious, it's like, here's somebody that I know, I mean, I just saw a post you put up the other day of saying, this is why I love doing this. Like you love being in the clinic. And then all of sudden it's like,

Well, the thing that literally has gotten you this modicum of fame is going to get robbed if you go too far because literally that's where your time has to go and you only got so many hours in a day. So what's the landscape look like for you now that your life has changed that much?

Courtney (07:05.397)

I literally was, I think about this all the time because...

As GATE Happens has grown, my role has changed dramatically. It has become more of meetings and we need to talk about marketing and we need to talk about product and we need to talk about all of these things and courses and there's this, it's a whole big animal. And that animal doesn't exist unless I'm in this clinic because you have to have skin in the game.

And this is where my joy lies. Like, I don't care what kind of day I'm having. It could be the worst day. And I've had a couple of them recently. But when I step in this clinic and I'm with my patients, I'm like focused. I don't think about anything else. I'm with them. And I, at the end of my day, I'm like, my gosh, like I can breathe. I feel like I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. And

that really matters to me because how can I build a company and teach and do these things if I don't have skin in the game? If I'm not being able to see what I'm teaching about is even working. So that's kind of one piece of it. The joy that I get being here is another piece. And then the compromise that I'm finding is time. Because I have to be in the clinic

less hours in order to run the business aspect of GATE Happens. So it's been this kind of balance that I've had to try to figure it out and I'm still figuring it out. My poor front desk, she's like, are we changing your schedule again? I'm like, yep, we're changing it again. So my right now I'm in the clinic two, two days a week. and I have to say there, I mean, they are, there are my like two less stressful days of the week.

Courtney (09:11.752)

I really enjoy being in here. With that being said, I'm getting pulled on by a lot of different pieces going, well, you need to do this and you need to be here and we need to do this. And that's when I've, you know, I really think you need to delegate things. You have to find the greatest team to support you. It's the only way. And we've worked very hard at finding a good team. And it's taken years to be like, this is the right fit.

this is the right fit. And when you have that team and they can kind of, you know, build up around you, then it starts to work really nicely.

Beau Beard (09:48.526)

of like a fortress, which you need more and more. Yeah, you get moving along, but I want to get information because yeah, I love nerding out with you and I want people that are listening not to just because I could dive into so many aspects of the business and clinic because I would learn a lot. The only thing I wanted to kind of double tap on there is I've always thought it's really interesting when you see any successful business and it kind of spins out of control in a good way and it ends up like crashing in on itself. So for you.

you know, if you went completely in this media route information and pretty soon, your joy lies in the clinic, but then you kind of get further away from the material and the actual application. And pretty soon you, I think you're a lot like me and I don't want to put a thought or a word in your mouth, but almost like a charlatan. If you're like, well, do I know what's the best practice anymore? If you got a couple of years away from this, but then all of a sudden it's like, what if you didn't have enough time to be in the clinic? And it's like the widgets kind of fall off the end of the conveyor belt. And pretty soon you're like,

We were crushing it like what happened? It's like the rug got pulled out from underneath you. So I think it's what I'm hearing and I think this is a good lesson for, know, if there's a student doc or anybody that's in business of like, you've got to kind of probably pause at some point, right? And have foresight of like, what do I want to happen instead of just kind of going, I'm going to keep chasing. I'm going keep chasing it. And you know, whether that's joy or time or creating a foundation of like, this is actually what keeps it going. It's not just the media. It's not just the.

You know, the followers, it's not just money. It's like, what is the principle foundation of the thing? Right? What's the, what's the lifeblood of that new animal, you know, called gate happens. So, so many lessons in there. So many lessons. So.

Courtney (11:23.798)

Yeah, I was talking to someone yesterday. A student had called me and I love those conversations because I have had some of the greatest mentors that have helped guide me, you know, including yourself and Tom and Brett, Tommy showed and like all of these people that have been so gracious with their time and their knowledge and for as busy as things get, I always want to make time to kind of pay back.

You know, I think that's important for our profession too. And, you know, we were talking about all of those things. You know, how do you keep that balance? And what I told her was prepare for things. even like, she's like, well, I can't really afford to bring on. I'm like, if you, always have to be thinking a step ahead because you don't want to be chasing your tail with your practice.

Because things will get busy. If your heart and your passion are in the right place and you're doing what you believe to be good work and you really love what you do, the business will come. And you have to be prepared for it because when things start getting busy and you don't have the systems in place, then you're like, what's happening here? And it's hard to kind of respond to that rather than being proactive with it.

We've learned that lesson quite a bit over the past couple of years. mean, a funny story is after Peter's podcast.

Beau Beard (12:55.864)

She's talking about Peter Attia for people that she's just on a first name basis Peter Attia, no big deal, you know, but yeah, she's talking about the drive with Peter Attia. So check that episode out if you haven't.

Courtney (12:59.8)

Thank

Courtney (13:05.304)

you know, talk about preparation. mean, I prepared for that podcast. I'm telling you, like I was studying for boards again. Like I wanted to have it down. You know, I knew it could be a good platform for us. I knew that we could really help people on that platform. so there was a lot of preparation that went into that. And at that time, when that podcast released, we had like, I think we had two products out and one of them was we're ToastFacers.

And my, one of the girls that worked for us, she was a stay at home mom and she, she would ship the tow spacers out of her basement. So we will have like nine or 10 orders in a month. So it was like, great. was like, you know, we were able to help her out a little bit. We were helping other people. had, you know, whatever. the day after that podcast, she called me and she was like, you need to come over.

And I was like, what do you mean? She's like, and bring your aunt and bring your daughter because we had all these orders and we were literally in her basement, like packing things up. And I just like, I always remind myself of that story and you know, where things have have come and you know, just grateful for everybody who's really helped us along the way. But those are the things like, and now we learned the next podcast.

It's like, get the systems in place, have everything ready to roll, because you don't know what's going to happen, but if it happens, want to be...

Beau Beard (14:33.218)

I always love hearing Tim Ferriss say that his show is a blessing and a curse to his people that are selling products. Courtney is being very generous with her time as a windstorm is wreaking havoc on her area and she's moseyed on over her office to make it happen and there's wildfire possibilities. So yeah, we appreciate her being on today. So let's kind of do-si-do and get into the clinical side.

something that maybe people wouldn't expect me to ask you, because technically we're in the same field, is like, how do you explain to people what you do? Especially at this stage in the game, right? Hyper specialized, yeah, you're a chiropractor, but if somebody, let's say you're not pitching yourself for a podcast, somebody you're out in public and somebody is just like, what do you do for a living? Or, hey, I got this back thing and you're trying to explain like what you do that would be different. Like what's your, what have you leaned on?

and maybe how has it changed in the past few years.

Courtney (15:31.776)

I mean, it depends on how much time time we have, but I typically will just say something like I, I enjoy helping you walk better through life. No, but I might, I might put it on a t-shirt. you know, and we go a little bit deeper and then it's like from the ground up and you we talk, we dive into the importance of the first interface and the only interface you have with the ground. So that's my like.

Beau Beard (15:39.566)

Wow. Is that on a t-shirt yet?

Beau Beard (15:45.294)

Just send me one please.

Courtney (16:02.08)

very, very quick elevator pitch.

Beau Beard (16:04.494)

So that's the portal of entry, right? That you're obviously for people listening, they're probably understanding if they didn't know like, she works with feet, she's specialist in that, still treating the whole body. So let's kind of start walking down this path of what does somebody like you do who has become hyper specialized, become an industry and kind of content expert. When we're talking about gait analysis, which is in that vein of one of your loves, you know as well as I do that it can be

pretty difficult, would say extremely difficult to become even proficient at it, let alone world class. So first, like a clinician that's starting out on their gait journey, and I was gonna do a whole lot of walking and foot puns, the journey of a thousand steps, but I'm just gonna table that. There might be a few left. I'm a dad, what can I do? I got some, I got some for you. So can you give us just like,

Courtney (16:52.802)

Please, please give me some. mean, it never gets old with me. It never gets old.

Beau Beard (17:02.144)

A couple key factors, like maybe it's a few checklist items like two or three or one or two for walking gate and running gate that you're like, you have to address these or look at these because they're just that important. So a few things that really stick out.

Courtney (17:16.972)

I think with Walking Gait, it can get so technical. And especially now with all the technology, it's like everybody wants to break down things to the smallest little piece. And I've always asked myself, what is all this information and is it necessary for the patient? Yes, you can get these 20 page reports and it looks really fancy and you

there's a lot of information, but how much of that really is beneficial to the patient? And is all that information beneficial to the patient? You know, I mean, we talk about this all the time, sometimes too much information and people start thinking, I can't even believe I can walk, period. You know, it's with all these things that are wrong with me. So I really try to be cognizant of that. Walking gate to me is,

such a beautiful thing to watch. I think one of the biggest things that I look at is just the entire person. What is their kind of almost emotional state when they're walking? I think you can tell a lot by just watching the big picture of someone's gait. You can, and the example I usually give is if someone was being interviewed for a job and they walked out of the office.

You could tell if they got hired or if they didn't get hired simply by how they were walking. I know when my 14 year old daughter comes walking in the door from school, what kind of day she had, because it's a window to their nervous systems. And so, you know, they could have a proud, confident gait with a tall spine and strength to their bodies and to their minds. Or it can be this kind of slumpy gait or slower cadence.

And that's what I really like paying attention to just in the world, because I'm watching that all the time. And I think with gait assessment with my patients, that's the first thing that I will always teach also is just look at the person that's standing in front of you and walking in front of you. Then you can start to dive into the nitty gritty, like what's the big toe doing? What's the ankle doing? How does that impact?

Courtney (19:40.502)

the rest of the body. you know, there's not too many professions out there that look at the system like that. Like, you know, like yourself and people that, you know, that we work with when you look at the body as a whole. And I hear that a lot from my patients, which sounds really like, you know, you would think that that's not really the case anymore, but it is, you know, it's not most,

Beau Beard (20:03.425)

huh.

Courtney (20:09.15)

know, treatments don't look at the whole person. It's like you're a foot person, you're a knee person, you're a hip person without taking into context how they relate to one another.

Beau Beard (20:18.35)

Do you think you have, you think you battle that at all? Have you become so specialized that sometimes people are coming to you? Well, I guess you probably have a lot of primary foot complaints, but do you feel like sometimes you maybe, do you divert away from the foot because you're like, well, this isn't the primary link, which was one of my questions of like, let's go over there real quick. How do you determine, you know, and again, there's an entire assessment, but if somebody comes in and they're coming in for primary foot complaint,

Courtney (20:34.744)

always.

Beau Beard (20:46.734)

because I'm assuming that's what you get a lot of, how are we taking this walk with them of this isn't your foot, right? And then how do you battle that? Well, I'm here for my foot, there's expectations. And what are you telling me? It's how I stabilize centrally or how I breathe or X, Y, Z. Do you feel like you fight some of that because you have put yourself in one of those specialty categories now?

Courtney (21:08.408)

100 % of my patients that are on my patient schedule now have a foot complaint. actually like when people call into my office, it's lower extremity, foot or ankle. 100 % of my patients that come in for a foot or ankle complaint, I always say to them, this is going to be not just about your foot or ankle. So I can't tell you the last time a new patient left and the things that I told them were just about the foot and ankle. I don't think ever.

And I consistently say, wish it was just a foot problem, but it isn't. I literally say that a hundred times a day. Because it never is. That's what's beautiful about the foot is it tells you things. You can look at it and see aberrant load. You can see bunions and hammer toes and changes in the structure of the foot that should tell you almost like gait, something is going on here. Pay attention.

because the foot has the capacity, right? It holds our bodies up. So if you take someone, for example, I had a kid in here yesterday, young kid, and he was his toes, you know, kind of like the Charcot Marie tooth foot where it's like the gripping and the hammer toes and at that age to see that type of

structural change, just you don't see that, that young. And when I see things going on on both sides, you have got to say, what, is this coming from? Is it systemic? Is there, what else is going on here? Because it's not a foot, this isn't a foot thing. And as we started to assess him, you know, we talked about developmental stages. Did he skip crawling? He didn't crawl for that long.

This kid was so, he had a high level of stress that when he was standing there, he was like, like this, his entire posture, even the kid was barely breathing. And I see that with those foot types that are really like, cavus and stiff. It's almost like their foot is saying like, I'm the only place that can give you stability. So you have these feet that are like gripping the ground and

Courtney (23:30.194)

Shame on me if I just said like, roll the bottom of your foot. That's not going to be the solution. Yes, we're going to say, hey, we're going to be doing these things for your foot. Okay. But if we want to have lasting results here, not just for today, but for this young kid through the rest of his life, we have bigger, we there's a bigger elephant in the room and that's getting this nervous system to dial down a little bit. And so,

I had this conversation with his parents. We're doing things like, I have him, his cadence, by the way, this kid was a hundred steps per minute, which is slow. And so I'm watching him walk and his mom, they came in to me for his, for his feet. And the first hour of the assessment had nothing to do with his feet. I'm watching him walk. I'm walking, watching him breathe. And I'm watching his cadence. And I was like, a hundred steps per minute. That's

If he was, and I told his mother this, I was like, if he was your age, I would want you getting evaluated for dementia because we know that slower cadence is a predictor of dementia. Like that's how slow his gait was. And his mother said to me, know, she's like, that's really funny. She's like, cause we're always telling him that it looks like he's walking in sand cause he walks so slowly.

And so that was my window where I'm like, I know they understand what I'm talking about here. And so we worked on things like faster cadence. I literally had him crawling. We did things that I knew a 13 year old would be able to do. He's not going to sit there and do like here. These are your five exercises. know? So.

I think the education piece is really important because when you educate on the why, yes, this is we're exhibiting and the symptoms are being seen at the foot, but no, this problem is not just a foot thing.

Courtney (25:28.832)

And I think that's where the time and the education comes. But there is not a patient that comes in here that leaves with just a foot thing.

Beau Beard (25:39.306)

I was gonna ask this later, you've you kind of you know, you mentioned earlier you can tell what kind of day your daughter has had by the way she walks in What's your take on? I would go a lot of different directions here. I'm not saying repressed emotions living in the body necessarily I'm not saying that's not the case. Let's say somebody loses the ability to express walking gait due to mechanical breakdown degenerative change neurodegenerative Issues do you think that has a direct?

correlation to increased bouts of depression, anxiety, because your body almost just can't. There's like a mismatch between mood and emotion and what your body is literally able to do.

Courtney (26:20.92)

1000%.

Beau Beard (26:22.648)

So if that's the case, right, and we don't have to say, hey, we don't have to do yin yoga to release your hip for the specific emotions, we don't have to get that hyper precise. If that's the case, what are some of the things we can do for some of So I'm just imagining, let's put an example out there. 75 year old woman walks into your clinic, she's had knee replacement that wasn't awesome, she's headed for a hip replacement, she's kind of in a flexion-antelogic gait, or she's bending forward and she's kind of got a little shuffling gait.

you know, one of her big complaints is let's say hip pain, but then as you're talking to her, you're like, you know, massively depressed, can't do a lot of things she wants to do. What do you, you know, what are some of the best place? Cause we could very easily just like, you know, when we're like, Hey, roll your foot on that ball. could say, we'll go exercise, do whatever you can. But like, we don't know how much pain they're in or what they're not able to do, or they don't want to ride a bike. Cause that's just the most mind numbing thing. So how do we,

Do you just start with, let's get stuff moving and we will try to get them as good as we can, or do you try to approach it from, and I'm very curious on this, like what end? Like, the tripwire here getting them to emotionally feel better so they do move better, or do they need to move better? Like, where do you start on that spectrum? I know it's probably different for everybody, but if you had any insights in like your years of practice of like, you gotta get a mood flip before you're gonna get a movement one, or you know, vice versa.

Courtney (27:46.808)

For as long as I've been doing this and I have tried many, many things, and this is going to sound very simple, but this is what is working for me. Unless someone has an acute stress fracture in their foot, right, or an acute injury, there's a reason why walking is called the panacea of medicine. And so,

I literally will start people regardless of what they got going on. It's the reason I wrote the book. There's, I call it a micro walk. It's five minutes. There are few people that cannot go for a five minute walk, regardless of pain. Sometimes we'll even cut it down. You want to go three minutes? I don't care. But we're going to start with five minutes.

If you can, I want you outside. I don't care about cadence. I don't care about anything. You're just going to get outside and give me five minutes. If you want to go walk to your mailbox and come back, that little introduction gets, not only gets people moving, but it starts to build a confidence in their movement that they never thought they're like, wow, you know, I've had patients that have less than 2000 steps a day.

that you're barely moving around your house. Because there's this cycle that's like, I've been in all this pain. I'm afraid to put my foot on the ground. I'm not going to go outside. I have depression. I have anxiety. If you look at the research at 2000 steps, even increasing by 500 steps, which is about five minutes, starts to have a dramatic change on your health, both physical, mental, and emotional. Five minutes. I think there's few people.

that cannot walk for five minutes. And that literally is my entry point. And then I'll be like, they, depending upon the person, I'm like, we got this breath exercise, do this for your foot. Super simple.

Courtney (30:00.564)

it works because then the next week they'll be like okay i'm like all right add another five minutes in these small small doses and i tell them this is i'm always giving

Education upfront. You know, the pattern is never linear. It's never going to be, feel good today and I feel better tomorrow and then I keep feeling better. I know that with my own personal health. It is a roller coaster. And we have to be okay with the up and the down. It's living well with symptom. I've really refrained from telling people that your goal was to live pain free. I think that's a disservice.

Beau Beard (30:42.382)

Hmm.

Courtney (30:49.272)

Because it's not. It's how do we live well with it? How do we give this person the confidence to be able to say, OK, I can do this five minutes. And that's where I've started. And there's a lot of factors outside of the physical person that are benefited by that. Just getting outside. Or if they're just moving around their house sometimes. I'm working with a guy right now and I'm

in California and he's like, I'm just doing the five minutes up and down my hallway. I'm like, great. Perfect. Because he wasn't even doing that. So, you know, I think that entry point is is a great place to start.

Beau Beard (31:33.368)

And you said, you know, it sounds too simple, but you got to take action, you know, action on no action on great education gets you right back in the same place. So I think you could educate, educate, educate, tell them exactly what they need to hear. And it creates no action or you could create an action step that seems too simple. And they're like, God, I'm having results. so I'm going to, I'm going to.

Courtney (31:53.378)

I mean, with chronic foot pain, they don't want to put any weight on that foot.

And you have to get this buy-in with them and this trust with them and this confidence with them that it is okay to load your foot because they're going to be scared. But, you know, if you can slowly start to implement with that, that's when, you know, that's when I really like, I'm like, I love this stuff. Because when you get somebody who just

is depressed and anxious and you're changing their lives. And it warms my heart.

Beau Beard (32:39.386)

I got one for you. I'm going to hold your feet to the fire. We'll just create a tally over here. We're to go back. You've got to give me one technical aspect of walking gate and one technical aspect of running gate that you're like, if you're missing this from when you go. So I always stole the term. I love that you highlighted, look at the whole person when I'm talking about gate, we always say penumbra, like a fuzzy outline of the person. like literally look sideways at them. Don't look right. Just like what's going on. And if you're like, that's like,

looks like a monster coming at me or like that person looks hyped up like you're going to tell us. So I love that. But when we go to the technical and we're not saying degrees of pronation from, you a joint, like, what are you like, you got to look at these things, one from walking, one from running.

Courtney (33:24.964)

that's tough. There's, love all of it. Okay. So if I were to think about a walking gate, think there's two kind of key things that we can't ignore. One is feeling the heel because you walking is a grazing of the heel. have to heel strike because it initiates, it's like a pole vault, right? It's that the heel hits the ground. The calcaneus is awesome.

And then it starts, it initiates this cascade of pronation. And this is where the body really starts to.. know, all the magic starts to happen when that heel hits the ground. Okay? As you start to get all of this rotation into the system. And if we can't feel that, you can't feel how hard you're hitting the ground. Your foot's all the way out in front of you, and you just have this hot heavy gait. It's a.. gait is a beautiful, like soft, efficient thing.

So when that heel hits the ground, we should start to see this cascade. So I'm always looking at how, what is the heel doing? Can the person find pronation? We don't want to avoid it. So most of my patients, regardless of what their foot looks like, I'm looking at how do I get them to find pronation, control pronation and feel it? The other kind of big thing at the foot is the stability of the first ray, the big toe.

I think that range of motion and what happens there, you know, I just saw, I think it was an article in sports illustrated this month. And, the player was quoted as saying, you know, you don't realize what happens to your body when your big toe hurts until it hurts. Because I see it every day. This is my clinic. All I see a lot of big toe pain and you don't re you can't walk. You can't turn.

You can't twist when your big toe hurts and it affects everything above the chain. It'll affect your stride length. It'll affect your cadence. It will affect your knee extension, your hip extension. So I'm always looking at what's happening with that big toe.

Beau Beard (35:34.584)

So I hope everyone is picking up the passionate nerdism of Courtney Connolly. Like she's talking about this, like this is poetry or music, which I love. And I could sit here and, you know, jazz with the on all day on this. I love that. So what do you have, which I like both of those, cause it's like you're kind on both ends of the teeter totter of this kind of like, you know, kinetic mechanism. So then in running,

Courtney (35:40.664)

you

Beau Beard (35:57.258)

what you know and I we know now that there's different styles of running it's not just you know the foot you know both feet leaving the ground so let's just talk running in general what's one or two things there that like you have to address this or look at this

Courtney (36:08.93)

think if I wanted to keep it super super simple it's the overstride. Just looking where the foot is striking. You know we won't get into the conversation of know strike patterns you know. I just look for making sure that that foot is getting as close to the center of mass as possible and with a running gate you know gosh I mean that's that we could talk about that forever. You would definitely

Beau Beard (36:37.686)

like you said, it's complex, right? that's, do you get lost in the complexity or do you try to distill it? And that's why I wanted to ask you like, okay, what are you looking at first or what's things that you got to address on every runner? And you know, if that's, would assume if you want to, you know, jive on this, if that piece is pretty good, right foot, you know, near their mass, a lot of stuff is good because like it's a domino. So you're like, check. And then you can go through and become more nuanced. And

Yeah. Okay. So let's flip it a little bit real quick and just kind of have fun with it. What are what it's a pet peeve. It's a misconception. It's mistakes that you see perpetuated from the gait analysis side. You're like, this is not that important or why are we paying attention to this? And again, we're still talking from the clinician looking at somebody not trying, you know, somebody being like, am I doing this on their

Courtney (37:28.994)

think with all gait assessment and analysis, I think it's important that we understand that we're not all supposed to look the same. Each individual brings something unique to the table because gait is influenced by so many factors. Traumas, like I said, what happened to you that day? Your emotional state. There's a lot of environmental factors and biomechanical factors that this person brings to the table.

Our job is not to make everybody look like soldiers out there with this like, you know, specific walking and or running gate. But what I do think we can do is try to create efficiency. So that's a big word for me. If I see something in a walking gate or a running gate that I think is deterring their efficiency, then I'm going to go after it. I might go after cadence on a runner and I might not. You know, I...

might go after how they're striking their foot and I might not, depending upon symptoms. Is that really going to be, you know, the most bang for my buck there? And some of those things are hard to change. And then you start changing them. You're like, no, no, no, no, this looks way more inefficient. So, you know, from a walking perspective, we were designed to walk for very long periods of time. And so that efficiency word pops up a lot.

Why can't you walk for a long period of time?

Beau Beard (38:59.982)

I mean, that's a great way to look at it, right? That you're not putting people in a cast, right? This is how it is. We're maximizing efficiency based on your anthropometric measures and lifestyle and tasks. But the other thing is you made it more complex. Thanks a lot, Courtney. You said, oh, it's individualized, right? Which it is. So then this is the root of the question. And this is something that I always think is a very fun, just like thought.

process question that you ask at a seminar with a group of friends, how do you determine ideal gait? So if somebody wants to practice gait analysis, the problem becomes what? Nobody has a perfect gait because we're like, as soon as you hit the ground in our world now, everything is kind of like, well, something's going to change. So how do we determine what idealized gait is to determine what we're looking at that's aberrant when we're analyzing gait?

Courtney (39:52.482)

Well, you're not going to like this answer either. But again, that's what's ideal for them. You know, when I'm working with someone that has, you know, pain, for example, and we give them a couple of gate drills to do, let's say I do something like with a metronome. like, Hey, go listen to this metronome for five minutes. And they come back to me and they say to me, Hey, that really helped. Then I know I'm on the path to getting them to an ideal gate for them.

You know, I wish I had a better answer for you to put that into like, this is ideal, but I do think that it's, that looks very different from person to person. It is, it's my job to create efficiency for them and to get them to their goals. You know, that's another question I always ask is what are your goals? Because my goals are going to look very different for me than they are for the person sitting in front of me. So.

Do I want them to say, I want to walk 10 miles a day? Sure. They might have zero interest in that.

Beau Beard (40:54.158)

Mm-hmm.

Courtney (40:55.862)

So ideal for them is what I want to learn about so that I can create that ideal picture for them. And if they want to, you know, they want to run an ultra race, then fine. We're going to create ideal for you, which is going to look different than someone that wants to walk three miles. So, you know, I do wish that there was more, but I think that's something that we all kind of struggle with. you know, is there this

You know, when I got out of school and someone had like plantar fasciitis, I'd be like, man, it'd be nice if there was a protocol for this.

Beau Beard (41:33.995)

anything in human body. Yeah.

Courtney (41:35.544)

You know, like it'd be really nice and I think it just takes a lot of practice because I'm still doing it

Beau Beard (41:42.681)

Well, to ward off salivating dogs listening to this, do you think idealized gait is derived from neurodevelopmental models? Do you think it's derived from anthropological? Like where do you think we're kind of, know, Michaud's textbook, wanna, you know, like a keystone of like, hey, if you're gonna learn it, you gotta go through this. When we're talking about the angles pronation and where the heel striking and you know, the angle of Meyers line. Yeah, we can say that's all biomechanics, but again, that comes down to, how did the biomechanics of this

meets to interact with the ground. And like I said, it is different, but like, is that watching a baby walk? For people that are really wanting to take those first steps, there's another one, take those first steps of what do I look at to realize, idealize, besides reading a book and then just watching somebody walk? Because nobody's perfect, so you can't see that in practice, in essence.

Courtney (42:33.092)

I think that, you know, we talked about this a little bit earlier. Those developmental stages are big for me. I'm always asking about that. If there's any type of, you know, missed developmental stage, you can always kind of see it later in life. When you see someone walking, for example, when I see that, like, you know, that rib cage that's flared and they're kind of walking like this, you know, if you think about it, and I think this is interesting too.

In one of my courses I teach evolution, right, which I find to be very interesting and apparently like nobody else finds it as interesting as I do.

Beau Beard (43:12.706)

Me and you and like a few, a other weirdies. Yeah.

Courtney (43:16.216)

But if you look at, because I wanted to put this in the book and the editor was like, you got to cut this down. I'm like, really? If you look at like the key evolutionary adaptations that you read about from the different species, It was like lumbar extension. It was a pelvis that started to flare. It was changes where the groove of the tibialis anterior goes. It was changes in the structure of the

Beau Beard (43:22.51)

killing your soul.

Courtney (43:45.26)

big toes that we can start to propel forward. If you look at those key adaptations, those are all still, if I listed them out for you and I said, I want you to look at your patient list and tell me what's wrong with them. Respiration, right? Respiration changed when we became a biped. It will line up very close to what you are seeing in your office. So I think from an evolutionary perspective, we are still, we're constantly evolving.

And if we stop moving, which we are, and you become sedentary, then you start to see these kind of things that we're supposed to be evolving and becoming more resilient. It's like we're dead in our tracks.

I just find that to be fascinating. you know, those are the kind of things I really think about when I'm watching someone move. Hey, are they moving? Yeah.

Beau Beard (44:40.686)

So look, can I ask a question real quick? Cause you just thought came up and sorry, I'm like a little, a little puppy with an idea. Do you think, so we talk about in the neurodevelopmental world, like those first two to three years of life, right? You're kind of setting as your nervous system develops, you set this biomechanical framework. Yeah. It changes as you grow, right? Things change, angles change, bones harden, you know, all those things. Do you feel like that's just continuing through life? Is that kind of what I just heard you say? Like we're evolving throughout life and we're supposed to be, you know,

I get there's a whole, you know, can you devolve or is it just all adaptation in a certain direction? But do you think that's the case? Like we're moving towards it and you some, like you said, because you said dead in the tracks, the first time I've ever thought about it, like, maybe we're continually supposed to be, it's not just you're three years old or 15 years old and here's your anatomy. And then you're like, you know, keep going. You're like, no, no, literally keep going.

Courtney (45:34.274)

Yes, I do. Constant.

Beau Beard (45:39.503)

It's an interesting thought. So, okay, if we go back to an ideal pattern or something, so there is no ideal pattern, it's just a moving target consistently. Because we would say, well, you know, at a 15-year-old for this person, it's going to be different, but that 15-year-old same person at 35, ideal efficiency is different, whether they've actually done the things that they should have done to keep up the requisite, whatever we're going to call that adaptation evolution. Yeah, it's interesting. I don't even know it. Yeah.

Courtney (45:51.19)

Yes.

Courtney (46:07.616)

I think you summarize that perfectly.

Beau Beard (46:10.018)

Yeah, I'm just like having kind of an epiphany. So that's why I like having people like you on the show. So thank you. I'll just kind of say it here and be happy that I have a new thought. But

Courtney (46:21.11)

I think it keeps it interesting too, like when you think about it like that.

Courtney (46:29.366)

That's why we, you know.

Beau Beard (46:29.614)

I mean, makes sense. mean, wouldn't, all the longevity talk nowadays is why you want to maintain lean muscle. It's like you want to, we get it. You're supposed to be healthier and healthier and healthier. And we, I don't think I've thought of, what do even want to call it? Movement expression, neurodevelopmental evolution, like continuing. It's kind of like you get there and then you're like, we'll just increase your VO2 max.

or improve your grip strength or whatever it is, which are important, but it's like, what's the, again, whole organism doing? It's kind of adapting to its environment. Hopefully that's a positive move.

Courtney (47:01.868)

That's why I think one of the easiest ways to ensure that that happens is make sure you're walking. You're getting a lot. You're getting a lot with putting your foot on the ground.

Beau Beard (47:09.592)

Yeah.

Beau Beard (47:14.328)

So you mentioned, know, honing in on things with patients in terms of maybe you, you know, discuss cadence with them or, you know, feeling their heel. So one thing I hear a lot in my clinic and I want, you know, the Dr. Conley answer on this. A lot of people come in and they're like, hey, I saw this practitioner and they told me I need to be pushing off my first or my big toe harder.

I need to, you know, feel this, that or the other during my walking gait or my running gait. I'll give you my thoughts and I want to hear your thoughts whether they conflict with mine or not. I've always kind of thought like, well, gait is such a subconscious thing. I almost see it as like this interpretation of, well, does the joint move? Does the tissue move? How do you integrate those things in your, you know, cerebellum and then your brain and how do you put it back out in the world through movement? And I was like, I think that's really, I don't know if that's good to have a lot of conscious things in this big subconscious pattern.

I think sometimes you have to, but like, where do you live on that spectrum of like, cause I mean, I see people that get messed up by the conscious level thought and I see some people I'm like, I think we need to have a little more sometimes I get it's in of one, but like, are we messing people up by having a conscious level thought or do we have to do that sometimes?

Courtney (48:08.929)

I'm

Courtney (48:26.754)

The second most common thing you will hear me say in my office is, I want you thinking about nothing, you're gonna end up walking in circles talking to yourself. When we tell patients, because I see it all the time, I want you to push off your big toe. What I see, I always go back to efficiency, and I'm looking at them going, what are you doing? This is not important. And then they come in three weeks later and they're like, my knee hurts. I'm like.

Walking is just what you said. I tell them, go outside, enjoy being outside. If I give any type of gait drill, it's very, very simple. It would be like, walk faster and listen to a metronome so you're distracted. Walk taller, walk softer, just very simple, like little cues. But if you take away the joy of them just getting outside and walking, then you are just going to, here's one, shoot yourself in the foot.

because you're making it harder on them. The beauty of walking is just for them to get outside and enjoy being in their bodies and just feel what it feels like to move. There's a reason it's called a drill. So you want to do this gait drill before you start walking, great.

And then you start walking and you just enjoy. And then we're going to get you stronger. We're going to show you some skills. We're going to get the strength and skill to marry so that you can just go outside and enjoy. And that's really, I have seen some funky things with people trying to, you know, change their gait. And I just, you know, it makes it, that makes it, it makes it much more difficult.

Now, what I do think is cool, and I've been thinking about this, is like, you know, we have a lot of receptors on the bottoms of the feet that are screaming for, you know, information. I think if from a, and I just have been thinking about this, if you could put like, let's say you wanted to bring someone's like awareness to the ball of the big toe. So, you know, they have all those proprioceptive insoles out there. Almost thinking of it is like,

Courtney (50:43.608)

a sensory sticker, right? Like if you were to just put some of the proprioceptive insert underneath certain aspects of the foot, now you'd have to use it as a training tool, right? Because within a couple, you know, even minutes, the brain would be like, I got you, right? Like this is no longer a novel stimulus. But I think that would be kind of cool if we could look at someone's foot and be like, I want them to, you

Beau Beard (50:45.581)

Mm-hmm.

Courtney (51:13.602)

graze their heel. Maybe I put some type of stimulatory material underneath that part of the foot, you know, and just use that as a training tool. I mean, that might be cool. I don't know, you know, how, right? You know?

Beau Beard (51:26.934)

I love it. I because I think one of the things that like I had Dr. Tim Brown on and one thing that doesn't get talked about enough and I know we're taking a little sidestep here is like the creative process within a clinician's know, day in mind like from thoughts and how they're applying you know, that's applying research or applying you know, like you're saying things that we all know, per se in the clinical world, you're like, what could I do that's just a little bit different that gives me a different result.

which is all based upon what us going back to, you know, maybe the better place and I have a conscious level thought is to like dive into the wet wear of their body and be like, Hey, I'm getting what I want without a thought, which I think is we, I would think is better, right? And that scenario for, you know, yeah, I, okay. So let's, let's kind of keep going on these little like almost rapid fire things. So we're saying we don't want people to necessarily break down the mechanics, but we still might have thoughts, right? Speed up.

slow down, I'm sure, but again, for those clinicians out there, like, well, that seems too just, you know, simpleton. I'm sure you're doing that with specific outcomes in mind. If I speed their walk up, that's going to get, you know, more great toe extension, more hip extension. It's not, I'm assuming, and I don't wanna assume wrong, that it's just, if I get them to walk faster, it's better for them and we're gonna, they feel better. Like it's a specific outcome

that you're looking for for a very generalized input, correct?

Courtney (52:57.91)

Yeah, I mean that the walking faster if you this is what I tell them. This is what I'll explain to my patients. When we have ground reaction force, it's when that's foot on the the foot is on the ground. So you people that are in pain, it's like I'm to walk slowly because I'm you know, I'm afraid to put my foot on the ground. Hey, but the longer that foot's on the ground, okay, you have more loads going through the system. Get off of your foot. The other thing with that faster cadence is

I love having the conversation of power. I think there's this, you know, we're getting on board with people need to strength train. We need to be stronger. We lose power faster than we lose strength as we age. In walking, you have to have ankle power. You have to have ankle push off. You have to have a foot that can propel you forward. You don't want to lose ankle power as you age. That's a big problem.

And so I like tying in those conversations because I think it's empowering. Like just saying the word power, like we're going to look at making you more powerful. And we can look at that from increasing cadence, for example. And then they're also working on things to be able to handle an increased cadence, which is you got to have a strong foot and ankle. And you're not going to get it by wearing your little shoe that rockers for you.

That's a big, you know, a whole nother conversation.

Beau Beard (54:35.48)

We just set the stage for another bullet point on here. You had mentioned earlier.

Courtney (54:39.308)

Well, did you see that? Did you see the Nike prototype that it looks like a prosthetic, like, you know, almost like a prosthetic shoe?

Beau Beard (54:45.56)

Mm-hmm.

Beau Beard (54:49.538)

Yeah, carbon fiber, yeah.

Courtney (54:51.48)

And it's like a brace that goes on the lower leg and they're like, you can PR your next race. I'm, you know, I had a call with, Irene Davis and Stephen Sashen, Jay DeCheri was on that call. And, we were talking about it. And when I saw that, I was like, this could be really cool for a compromised population.

Beau Beard (55:01.902)

Mm-hmm.

Beau Beard (55:10.522)

That's what I thought it was for.

Courtney (55:12.696)

If you have someone like that can't run because they've had some type of, I'm like, this could really be cool. And then I'm looking at it and going, they're telling healthy people to wear this thing? Like what?

Beau Beard (55:24.27)

I literally that was, I think it was in runner's world or it was in a magazine and I showed Sloan the picture and I go, oh man, they're getting in the orthosis game. And then yeah, I was like, oh no, that's not what it is. Cause I was like kind of giving them a kudos. was like, oh boy. So, okay.

Courtney (55:40.844)

Man, either we're all getting too soft, or like we need to introduce a little discomfort to people to get. Yeah.

Beau Beard (55:48.057)

Well, that we're talking about a whole another conversation, but okay. So there's the epitome of outsource writer, exogenous technology playing a role in a very human movement, right? Walking or running. So if we look at the whole barefoot ecosystem, you had mentioned earlier, one of the biggest things that you would hone in on a walking gate is not just like where somebody's hitting, but like their ability to feel their heel. So if we just talked about.

broad strokes of footwear and footwares impact on what we're doing with our gait nowadays. Is the barefoot world, you it's you shouldn't necessarily be all in because that kind of, you know, it kind of gets a little crazy on its own or is like, no, there's a lot of merit in there. Because you see like people going so far as like walking on little pipes and tubes. And I think some people see that like, I'm never going to be able to do that. So I'm just not going to do any of it. Right. Versus we'll just get out of your shoes and walk around your house barefoot. Like where do people

How much water does that hold, that barefoot ecosystem versus I'm over here wearing my rocker bottom shoe that's helping me propel myself forward?

Courtney (56:59.468)

There is, I'm a very big believer in a shoe spectrum. We cannot tell everybody you need to be walking around barefoot in a minimalist shoe. We just can't. We don't live in a world where walking around barefoot all the time is feasible. We're never gonna win that conversation. We are never gonna win the always or never conversation. So we have to be able to meet people where they are.

There is a time and a place for all different types of footwear, but we have to understand the education behind that footwear. If we're on this end of the spectrum, so think traditional footwear, footwear that's getting more cushy and more springy and you know, those, that type of footwear is doing more of the work for you. Number one. Number two,

The more stuff you have that's interfering with what your foot should be able to feel, that is going to compromise sensory acuity. It's going to compromise balance. And you as the individual need to make that decision. I need to educate you and say, listen, you're going to put this shoe on and it's going to rocker you forward. It might feel more comfortable. It's going to protect you, but you have to know that there is always a trade off.

And that trade-off is going to be you are going to lose sensory acuity and your balance is going to be compromised. Your choice. On the other end of the spectrum is your minimal barefoot shoe world. You feel the ground. Your foot can actually move. It does, however, here's the trade-off. You got to work a lot harder.

to wear a minimal shoe. The foot is going to take on more loads. It's going to be harder and it's not going to be as comfortable. Is this an environment where your foot will get stronger? Yes. Will you have better sensory acuity? Yes. Can you wear this footwear all the time if you've been wearing a traditional shoe and a foot orthosis? No. Or else you go from zero to a hundred and somebody's like, my heel starts hurting. And then they blame the shoe. They're like,

Courtney (59:13.876)

It's the shoes fault. I'm like, no, it's the fact that you didn't have a strong enough system putting into that shoe. So that's where the spectrum lies. You don't have to wear, I don't wear barefoot minimal shoes all the time. If I'm going hiking and there's a lot of rocks, now I will keep my foot in a functional position, which is white toe box, right? I'll get as low to zero drop as I can. If I'm tired though, I'm like, Hey, formal drop. Fine.

Right? It's knowing when to kind of dance along that spectrum. And I think that's a very important conversation to have because yes, do we want people like putting their foot into an environment where they're going to be more stable and stronger? 100%. We're not going to win that conversation though. So it's, it's okay, but just play with me a little bit. Even in my, um, aging population.

80 year olds, okay? When they come in and they're walking in in these shoes where they can barely stand in front of me without kind of wavering and they're like, I'm having trouble falling. And I'm like, I wonder why? Their foot hasn't seen the ground. The strength is gone. The sensory, the sensitivity to their foot is gone. They have to put their foot on the ground. So we'll start very small. Do me a favor. Couple minutes. Just stand at home.

You know, let your foot feel the ground. you know, and then that's what we'll do. We'll just kind of have them have different footwear. It's like, you know, I'm in Colorado and I always use this analogy as like the front in the biking world. have Jay and I think I'm Jay and I talked about this at one point. You have a gravel bike, you have a road bike and you have mountain bike. You're not going to use the same bike all the time.

And so it's the same with your shoe. When you're strength training, feel the ground. You have to. You can't be strength training in a shoe. You can't feel anything and you want to carry a bunch of So that's all the stuff that I enjoy talking about because I think it could make a really significant impact on walking gait efficiency, movement efficiency, and what we look like when we're trying to just be in the environment.

Beau Beard (01:01:41.551)

Well, and again, for everybody listening, can pick up why Courtney has become so popular. You're able to distill down complex stuff, even when it's nuanced, right? That it's individual based into simple action steps of, hey, you're in a shoe where you can't feel the ground. Just get out of your shoe for a little bit and feel the ground. We're not saying go walk around barefoot all day. You are walking around in a rocky environment.

Courtney (01:02:00.632)

All right.

Beau Beard (01:02:03.758)

why don't you put some padding under your foot? Nothing wrong with like just simplistic, logical things rather than dogmatic kind of flashy like it's all or none. Kind of a funny, it's not a funny story. It's an interesting story. A patient got referred to me that was a friend, know, a family friend and they wanted to cut off her second toe because it was crossing over the top of her first toe. You know, when I saw her, it was purple and you're kind of like one of those where they took off your shoe and you're like, ooh, okay.

So I get to kind of feel on her foot and ask her some questions and you know, never, you know, I was always in a shoe from the time her foot hits the ground and I go, and she was scheduled for the surgery two weeks out from the visit and I go, you know, let's just start with just like taking your shoes off. Blew my mind and I know you probably are used to this kind of stuff. She comes in, I want to say it wasn't even a week later, her foot is normal. Her toe is back.

Courtney (01:02:55.692)

Yeah.

Beau Beard (01:02:57.896)

in line in alignment and I'm not using chiropractic alignment terms like not hammered, not crossed over. It's not purple. And I was like, all you did was start taking your shoes off. And she goes, yeah, I go because I told her to, you know, roll her foot a little bit, thread her toes, which she couldn't really do because it was sore and you know, mechanically, I it blew my mind. She was going to have her toe amputated. And I was like, again, simple. You're like, I didn't go crazy. I didn't really do a whole lot of stuff in office. It was a long conversation of like

That's where we got to start. that, like that story to me, like you and you were talking, I was like, oh God, yeah, I got a story for you about just taking your shoes off every once in while.

Courtney (01:03:35.64)

So wild, like you would die if I told you how many times that happens in here. this, the pain, so many people come in here with pain along their fifth met, right? Like the Taylor's bunion. Same conversations. This is the last place I'm going because they want to do an osteotomy where they're going to remove part of the bone and you know, all this stuff to the foot. And I'm like, how about we just do this?

Beau Beard (01:03:42.359)

I can only imagine.

Beau Beard (01:03:50.05)

Mm-hmm.

Courtney (01:04:04.098)

How about you just stop wearing something that's literally compressing where your pain is? And this guy came in, this is one of my favorite stories. And he's like, you know, he's like, that's funny. He's like, because I wear these Crocs and I never have any pain in my Crocs. I'm like, please wear the Crocs and don't get surgery. It's like, it's wild. And I do think like, you know, yes, it's what you put into the shoe, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to be like, hey,

This part of my foot hurts and when I have something that's squeezing it all the time, it makes it worse.

Beau Beard (01:04:42.488)

which how dare you give somebody that fashion advice, first of all. The second, yeah, but sometimes when stuff seems too logical and what I thought was hilarious and I don't want to go too far down this just as a comment. When I saw a clip of you on Peter T's podcast and I just happened to glance through the comments and people approaching the idea, or maybe it wasn't his, maybe it was diary of a CEO of like when you had the comment of like, yeah, if we're in a tapered,

you know, toe box, it's going to basically change. And like people were trying to say, well, that's not true. Look at my like, if you did anything with any other mechanical object, regardless of how hard it is, right? This pillow, a piece of concrete, and you just squeeze it or put enough force, whether it's force over a short period of time or low level force over a long period of time, it will deform it. There are laws that will tell us this. I just thought it was hilarious. Like, why would you even want to try to argue that?

Courtney (01:05:22.295)

Yes.

Beau Beard (01:05:41.314)

Just if you want to wear those shoes that bad, wear those shoes. Just realize you made a choice and your foot's gonna hurt or change, whatever. It just blew my mind.

Courtney (01:05:49.782)

Yeah, I am. I can't I don't read the comments anymore just because I get I'm way too sensitive about it. But if you look at if you were to Google, I have bunions, what type of shoe should I wear? From every profession, whoever works with feet, their solution will be make sure you get a shoe that's wide enough for your bunion.

Okay. And I'm sitting here going, why are we telling this to people only after they have bunions? Like, it just doesn't make sense to me. You know what I mean? Like, just wear it to begin with. Like, I truly hope my goal, like in this lifetime, is that when I walk into like a grocery store, where you see like all these foot products, stuff for your bunions, stuff for your heel pain, all this reactive foot health care stuff, I want there to be proactive stuff. Like,

Beau Beard (01:06:25.453)

Yeah

Beau Beard (01:06:31.583)

Yeah.

Courtney (01:06:48.748)

get your foot stronger, wear the right shoes, and then save yourself from this nonsense later on down the road. You know, it's like we do that with, you know, you go into the doctor and like, what's your family history? Well, my mom has heart disease. Okay, well you better exercise and eat right. If we take what we know with the rest of the body and apply it to our foot, then these conversations should not be this like, well that's.

Beau Beard (01:07:15.544)

So when we're talking about, we're in the grocery store, we're in that aisle. There's also an aisle in the grocery store with dental floss and toothbrushes and toothpaste. So people that are wanting to work on their feet proactively, or maybe they've already got some messed up puppies, what are some foot hygiene things that people should start with today? besides, let's take one off the table, besides just taking your shoes off, what are a few easy things people could start doing today to start working on their feet?

Courtney (01:07:45.56)

Awareness. I think the majority of my job is to get people to just be aware of their foot. Like when you're standing, if you close your eyes, you should be able to feel the ball of your big toe, the ball of your little toe, the heel. You should be able to get your foot to change shape. So if I were to rotate to my right, you should feel the right arch lift and the left arch drop. The foot is this

adaptable versatile system that's constantly adapting to what it's feeling and We have to be able to feel that and get the foot to look and change what it looks like and I think that's really important so like those little things of like just lifting your toes up moving your body around and letting your body move your foot

is very important. A lot of my patients, when I have them try to rotate, their foot stays in one position. It's like there's this disconnect between the rest of the body and what the foot's doing. And so those little things, awareness, a lot of people that have pain in their bunions, for example, and they'll be standing and I'll be like, where do you feel on your feet? And they'll be like, well, I feel the inside of my heel and my big toe.

And I'm like, well, we shouldn't be scratching our heads here going, I wonder why their big toe hurts. Okay. Then I'll have them try to tuck their tailbone, right? Or let's see if we can go into a little bit of flexion. Cause if I go into some lumbar flexion, it should do what? It should change what I feel at my foot. If they can't do that, then we know we have an opportunity here to just get them to start to feel different parts of their foot.

You know, I had a guy in here yesterday, same thing. He had gone and they have removed, he's had like four surgeries, removing bone spurs from all over the inside of his foot, on the top of his foot and his ankle. No one has told him why all of this keeps happening. I had this guy, a very, very good athlete, mind you, lay on his back, Beau, you would've died. With his feet on the ground.

Courtney (01:10:08.672)

And I was like, I just want you to exhale for me and let your spine feel the ground, right? Like just tilt backwards. Hit, lift his heels up. Now I wanted him to lift his heels up just in half an inch. Just hover above the ground. His entire system started shaking right in front of me. And I mean like vigorously shaking.

And he's like, what do mean? Do it, let's do it again. So I actually made it easier on him. I had him lay on his back with his feet up against the wall, like at a 90, 90. So he didn't have to like, even even worse. When he went to try to lift his heel off the wall and like engage his hamstrings, the whole system just, and I looked at him and I said, this is what we call room for opportunity.

You know, just getting him to feel other parts of his foot in his body. So I think that just awareness, and that would be a lot easier if we just put our foot on the ground every once in

Beau Beard (01:11:00.738)

Yeah.

Beau Beard (01:11:14.958)

Yeah, and that's again, simple. Yeah, we'll kind of leave it at that. So when I want to ask a really nerdy clinical question that I'll keep on my normal track, because you brought something up, you're talking about each foot changing dynamically, in particular with rotation. I mean, we're bringing Greg out here in two weeks to do a seminar. Do you think like SFMA is kind of messing up by putting people's feet together?

which I know why they do it for repeatability, but do you think they're kind of trapping people's feet into a position where they can't transfer load or is that actually a good thing?

Courtney (01:11:50.732)

That's a good question. I don't know if I have the answer to that. I, you know, I'm always trying to mimic movements that we're going to see, you know, and in a walking gate, things are, you know, I'm constantly moving, right? And the system is doing different things on different sides. I know even with my own training,

I'm much more partial, like I feel better when I do single leg work. Then like, you know, and that's just, and I'm sure there's some like, you know, weakness that I'm not addressing somewhere, but I like that freedom, I guess, if you will, but I don't have a good answer for you on that.

Beau Beard (01:12:38.35)

For me, I'm having thoughts as we're talking here. I'll hear Greg say, if you lack rotation one way, maybe you cue them. Hey, are you actually shifting weight to your left leg as you rotate left? You could just maybe just have them split their stance, right? Or stand normal. Hey, let's do a defeat together in a normal and see if it changes. You're like, God, that's not a movement thing that I need to suss out. You're kind of seeing that interface. So just again, curious thought as we're going through here.

You had mentioned, you know, if you could have one big change, was, you you go into the grocery store and buy the, you know, the heel cups and the inserts and stuff. There's prophylactic mechanisms for your foot. If we're just looking at the giant ocean of healthcare and you had to have the tiniest ripple in terms of a legacy or what you're trying to do now that GATE happens has created a giant platform and not just the same that you started by posting every day.

Is it that or is there something more specific than that that you want to last or persist beyond you? Or do you even care if this thing lives as a company or entity? Or is it just kind of ideas that you want to still permeate the healthcare world when you leave?

Courtney (01:13:51.458)

You made me cry.

Beau Beard (01:13:51.808)

Not saying you're going anywhere anytime soon, just when that happens.

Courtney (01:13:55.692)

I get so emotional about this stuff. I want people to walk more. I want people to simply walk more. The power behind that simple thing that a lot of us are not doing enough of is so powerful. And for me personally, it has carried me through some very dark times. If I can get outside and just keep walking and I'll just keep going until I feel better.

And there is nothing that will stop you in your tracks faster than if your foot hurts. You're not walking anywhere. You can walk with low back pain, can walk with shoulder pain, but when your foot hurts, you cannot walk. And it will start this cycle of, I've been there, depression and anxiety. And you're like, I just want to go for a walk. And I have seen that ability to walk be taken away from people.

because of foot pain, because of now multiple surgeries. And it is a very difficult conversation when you're looking at this person and you're like, yeah, like this is going to be hard for you to simply go for a walk. You take that away. If you think of walking as like this trilogy, this physiological trilogy with breathing and sleeping, when you take those three things away, breathing, sleeping and walking, guess what?

you're going to have some serious problems. And so I hope that something that we have such easy access to and as clinicians, that should be on everybody's treatment plan. Regardless is to get outside, go for a walk. I don't care if it's five minutes and then also do this stuff. You know, and I, yeah, I hope that, that lives on.

Beau Beard (01:15:50.595)

I'll be taking your advice because my calf isn't the happiest with me because I kind of did a stupid little sprint workout the other day that I haven't done in a while. So I tried to run yesterday and my calf is still not happy. So today I have to kind of buck up and just say, hey, the weather's nice in Florida, go for a walk. That's okay too. Even though for me, what's up?

Courtney (01:16:06.71)

Yep. That's such a good point that you bring up there, because I also talk about this in the book, that people think of walking as like, you know, I'm an athlete and

Beau Beard (01:16:21.41)

That's what I was just going to say. I feel like I got to check myself.

Courtney (01:16:24.92)

Yeah, you know, like, I don't know, like, who wants to just walk? You know, a lot of athletes that are, you know, I have to do this and I have to do that. The power of the walk for them is probably even more important than the ones who are just trying to get out the door because there has got to be this happening at some point. And you can still get out there and feel good.

And it's okay that you're not like sprinting or like, you know, and that's something I have had to learn.

Beau Beard (01:16:58.732)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that's we, you know, now that I have two little kids and we live in a really hilly neighborhood, one thing we still try to do, which we're not, I mean, we're not perfect by a long shot. It's like, you know, it's post-dinner walk or you get them to walk together and is for people that have, you know, kids that are small, that's not always the easiest thing in the world to do is just go on a walk around your neighborhood. But like, I mean, there's been numerous times we make that move because

a kid's losing their mind. We're all a little like staticky with like how our level of just like, somebody's about to blow. You can literally go on a walk and you're just like, huh, that really did help. Or the kid blows up on the walk and you know, we just make them walk it out.

Courtney (01:17:33.271)

Yep.

Courtney (01:17:41.464)

There's probably one of my favorite research articles that I found when I was doing all this was relationship walks and specifically with mothers and daughters and how walking with like your teenage daughter, the benefits that it has and I can tell you with my 14 year old, you know, she'll fight me and I'm like, Addie, we're going for a walk and she won't have talked to me because she's like,

pissed off or whatever and she can't help herself. And we start walking and then all of sudden here we go and she just starts. You know and it's so good. It's so good. It helps both of us so much. And then I don't have to just say anything and you know it's been it's been a gift really and I want I want other people to experience that and know how powerful it is.

Beau Beard (01:18:38.094)

when you've mentioned a couple of times now that you do have a book coming out, which I'm sure you're diving into a lot of the things we talked about today and you know how to maybe get people walking more. But how much can you give us on the book? Can you give us a title? Can you tell us when it's coming out? Where it'll be available?

Courtney (01:18:55.34)

Yes, thank you. The book is called Walk Complex. Yes, Like Your Life Depends on It, if you want a comment after that. But yes, it is available now. The presale is happening now. The launch is May 5th of next year. So we are in the process of

Beau Beard (01:19:00.684)

Ehring.

Courtney (01:19:22.892)

you know, kind of amping up all of the, you know, publicity for that and, know, trying to get the word out there. But yes, it was, you know, when I thought about writing a book, I was like, there was a reason I've waited because for two years, when I tell you it was every, well, you know, I mean, you don't not think about it.

It's like, should I add this research? Should I change the sentence? I'm going to read it again. I need to, you know, in literally every single day, we, doesn't matter if it was a weekend. Like I can't tell you when I truly had a day where I was like, I'm not going to think about this. Yeah. know, I'm like, it's not done even now that we've turned in like the final edit, right? I literally emailed them this week and I was like, so, and then my editor was like, you need to stop.

Beau Beard (01:20:04.408)

books done air quoting done. Yeah.

Courtney (01:20:19.104)

And I was like,

Beau Beard (01:20:19.468)

But it's almost impossible. we, you know, to draw a parallel movement is developing throughout life or ideas about movement in your profession and all these things. And the research that comes to light, that was one of the hardest things for me as a book is like, when you're done, you kind of have to be like, well, I'm done for now, which is you can see why people want to write more books, but then you're like, well, it almost feels, I'm trying to think of the best word to me, it felt inauthentic to say the book's done.

Courtney (01:20:26.22)

Yes.

Beau Beard (01:20:48.046)

because then you're saying, these are all the ideas. Well, and everybody gets that, yeah, stuff changes, but you're like, God, that's not the case. So it is really hard to just hit the off switch.

Courtney (01:20:55.638)

Yep. I don't think that everyone.

Beau Beard (01:20:58.57)

No, well, that's a good thing. That's, you know, for a lot of reasons. So you got a book coming out. You've, know, in this past just year, you know, it went on a massive podcast tour. saw you on Max's podcast. Just, saw some posts the other day, Peter Tia, first name basis. You guys are besties now. Dyer see all of these places and I hope that anybody is listening to, you know, this tiny little show goes and listens to those shows because

I'm on purpose. listen to all of them I tried to ask some different things, but there's great information on those. There's going to be amazing information in a book. Yeah, I just.

Courtney (01:21:32.184)

just want to tell you, I've really enjoyed this conversation. I really have. It's nice to talk about this from a different perspective, and I appreciate that.

Beau Beard (01:21:42.531)

When would I hope, like I said, there's themes that come out of every show that are unplanned, simplicity and action. think that's the two biggest things is, you know, those are revolving doors. And with somebody like Courtney that could teach, can and does teach us stuff at the most complex, highest, nerdiest level, probably rarely does that because that's not the thing that's going to create action, whether that's for a clinician or a patient. So that's what I appreciate is

I can come on the show and I still learn stuff and we're not having to go complex and deep. I mean, I've had epiphanies, like I said, like, oh, I'm going to do some things different or I have different thoughts or questions now. for those that aren't, you know, haven't been following you, we're unaware of your work, you know, go follow you online. Obviously huge social media following now. Listen to these shows, look for the book when it's coming out, you know, do the pre-sale. I know how important it is to kind of help everything out by doing that.

But before I let you go and you can go check on the wind gusts outside and hopefully you can get your power back. I know you're an audiophile just like me. So are there any new artists or new albums you're really looking forward to or you can tell us about if it's new artists, anything new? Don't pull up some classics, anything new? Yeah. Yeah.

Courtney (01:22:59.884)

Music? Is that where we're going with this? man. Well, I mean, you know I'm classic Pearl Jam. That's my, that's always, that's always my go-to. You know, my daughter is so funny because she's like, why do you keep listening to this bebop music? And I'm like, bebop music? And I have been very much into like DJ dance music lately. Yes.

Beau Beard (01:23:07.31)

100%.

Beau Beard (01:23:26.99)

Really? Why do you think? When are you listening to this? All right.

Courtney (01:23:32.716)

Like all the time. I used to, there was a band, Lane Eight DJ. And I went to one of his shows and I just danced and had so much fun. And I was like, I wonder if I could just start listening to this like driving in my car. And I was like, this is fun. And then I'm like in the gym, I'm like, this is fun. So it just gives me this kind of energy.

Beau Beard (01:23:38.029)

Mm-hmm.

Courtney (01:24:00.096)

and it lifts my spirits. look for music to help set my tone and I will like, I'm such an emotional person. Like you put one song on and I hear like two beats of it and if it's something that like triggers something, I will literally start like crying or I'll be like dancing. And I've needed some of that lift. So that's been my music lately.

Beau Beard (01:24:06.595)

Mm-hmm.

Beau Beard (01:24:24.024)

Yeah, again, individualized necessitates a moment. like, there's a reason that this is of permeating to the top. So you'll appreciate this saying of how you can mood shift around music and how important it is on the drive here, a 10 hour plus drive with two kids. And I've gotten really into, if anybody knows Blanco White, kind of a Spanish, classical, folky kind of thing. And there's one song in particular called, God, what is it?

Courtney (01:24:39.435)

yeah.

Beau Beard (01:24:53.474)

so precious. And it's pretty ethereal and stuff and I'm listening to it and I turn it way up in the van and my kids are kind of jiving with it and they start talking. go, everybody be quiet. This is dad's version of Miss Libby putting paste on her face. If anybody knows Billy Madison and my Sloan just started cracking up and I go, you know what I'm talking about though? And she goes, I get it. yeah, music is a...

Courtney (01:25:04.759)

Yes.

Courtney (01:25:10.872)

Thank

Beau Beard (01:25:16.384)

A mood shift, walking can be a mood shift. You can smash those together. You could just take the earphones out and be outside and kind of enjoy that as well. Well, before we sign off, any last words of wisdom, anything we need to tell everybody before we jump off?

Courtney (01:25:31.65)

Just thank you, thank you for the platform. I really care about this work so much and to be able to continue to talk about it, I just feel so blessed.

Beau Beard (01:25:41.934)

We're doing awesome stuff. It's really been fun to watch. And I think if I'm being honest, I want to pay a compliment here that I think it's fun to watch because of your humility. you, you have had or are having, I think what a lot of people, whether they would want it when they get it or not, think they want. And I think how you're handling it and the message is still is kind of, you know,

There's a through line the whole time that I don't see change and that's you being an authentic person that cares about what you're doing and cares about the people you work with. So that's still happening and I hope it does happen even when you're on the red carpet with your new besties and doing all the fun stuff. So thank you again so much for taking the time because I know you're extremely busy and yeah everybody listening go find out more about Dr. Conley at Gate Happens on our website gatehappens.com and the new book and all the things she's just you know.

super famous and fancy, so do all the things. Thanks again.

Courtney (01:26:38.776)

Thank you.