Why Logic Fails in Health, Coaching & Leadership with Brett Bartholomew

In this episode, Beau sits down with Brett to unpack why the best coaches, clinicians, and leaders don’t just rely on knowledge—they learn how to connect, influence, and build real buy-in. Brett shares the life experience that shaped his approach to strength and conditioning, communication, and behavior change, including the role of identity, self-interest, and trust in helping people actually change. They dig into why logic alone rarely changes behavior, why role-playing and social scrimmaging matter more than most professionals think, and how practitioners can improve adherence by understanding what people are protecting. Brett also explains how these ideas connect to his new book, leadership, and the broader challenge of working with complex human beings. If you work in healthcare, coaching, or leadership—or you simply want to communicate better—this conversation will give you practical ways to think about influence, conflict, and human behavior in a much deeper way.

Full Transcript

Beau Beard (00:00.778)

I mentioned this the other day that so I didn't realize you got your master's at SIU, correct? You didn't go to undergrad at SIU. You went to Kansas. Kansas State. Okay. So why how'd you end up at SIU?

Brett (00:10.999)

Yeah.

Brett (00:16.898)

Yeah.

Kansas State, yeah. Wha K State Wildcats, yeah.

Brett (00:24.782)

so after I had graduated from Kansas State, the sh the short version was I thought I was a shoe-in. I I had this professor of cardiovascular physiology that was a guide or a mentor for Paula Radcliffe, famous, famous marathoner. And he I I told him I was gonna try to get this internship at Lake Placid, you know, the US Olympic Training Center. And so he wrote this like glory, like glowing recommendation, thought I was gonna get this thing, and it turns out like

Right after school, they were like, you don't have enough experience. I'm like, Well, yeah, I just graduated college. And so I was trying to figure out what to do. Long story short, I ended up interning at the University of Nebraska. I had gone, I had worked at done another internship at at Athletes Performance, now Exos. And I was trying to just continue to take the next step of getting as much practical experience as I could. I mean, and so

I remember there was there didn't end up being an opportunity at Nebraska for a graduate assistantship after that. And but a guy knew somebody at Southern Illinois. So the head strength coach at the time goes, What do you think of Carbondale? I thought that it was like on the periodic table of elements. I had never heard of it in my life. And he's like, You'd be, you'd have a chance to be an assistant for basketball and football. And then probably over the course of your time there would get to be the head strength coach for essentially eight sports. You'd get a ton of

you know, opportunity to program and everything and you'd get your master's paid for. At that time I had never even thought about getting my masters. So it was, it was a strategy to kind of bulletproof my resume because at the time, strength and conditioning was really requiring a lot of people to have their masters. So I had had done two unpaid internships. Now I was going to get my master's. And yeah, I moved down there within like a couple of weeks. And I I had never been there before. I had no idea what I was getting into.

Beau Beard (02:09.205)

So how was it? 'Cause you were there two years? Chant change.

Brett (02:10.562)

I mean, I I think, yeah, yeah. I mean, I ended up graduating a little early. Yeah. I mean, I think the the thing that I geeked out on was just being able to be a head strength and condition. I think over the course of my time there is men's and women's tennis, men's and women's swimming and diving, baseball. Like I said, I was an assistant for football and basketball, got to work with the dance team, the cheerleaders, like so I had so much dense and diverse experience. And I gotta do all my own programming. Whereas and my friend wouldn't mind me saying this, a buddy of mine had got an opportunity at Georgia.

Right, which at the time I was like, Wow, you're going to an massive SEC school. This is your your resume's made. I'm going to SIU. And it ended up like he didn't get to do any of that. You know, he basically escorted five star athletes to their classes. And so I was really grateful. I ended up loving the town. I think I got my heart broken there once by a a woman from a small town. I think she still lives there, Pinckneyville, Illinois. But, you know.

Beau Beard (03:03.125)

Pinkneyville.

Brett (03:04.332)

Yeah, I mean that there were more villes in southern Illinois than ever. And the reality was, I say I almost got my heart broken, there was no way, God bless small towns, I'm from the Midwest, love it, but there was no way I was gonna grow old in in Pinckneyville, Illinois. So that was I say it's the one that got away. It wasn't really, it was the one that I probably would have lost my mind living next to her parents and owning a lawnmowing shop.

Beau Beard (03:26.815)

Well, I was gonna guess Macanda, and nobody that's listening to this will think that's funny unless you actually went to Carbondale and Makanda's like the the hippie ish, crunchy town out by Giant City State Park. But as yeah. What there was Blue Sky and I I can't even I can't even remember. I mean, those all came about right as I I graduated in six and those were just becoming the thing to do. Like Blue Sky was like a couple years old by that point.

Brett (03:38.658)

How about the vineyards? Did you go to the vineyards?

Brett (03:43.756)

Loose guy, look at you. You're a bon vivant, you know all of

Beau Beard (03:56.256)

Yeah, it was a cool place. yeah, I spent three years and change there and yeah, I probably got my heart broken as an idiot and did a lot of fun stuff there. But if if we back up a little bit, why so I know why you got to SIU, which is where I went and you know, I I almost heard I ended up in Carbon Dale. I was like, whoa bro, like that's where I chose to go. So

Brett (04:17.078)

Yeah, yeah. I loved it. I ended up loving it.

Beau Beard (04:19.551)

But why did you choose strength and conditioning? Like what led you down that path? And now again we'll we'll get to where you are now today, but like what what was the the impetus to go into that?

Brett (04:29.846)

Yeah. I mean, anybody that has read my first book, Conscious Coaching, and I never try to make the presuppose like I never try to presume that a bunch of people have. I recognize that I'm nobody in the grand scheme of things. But the the short answer was I nearly lost my life when I was a teenager. and I was hospitalized. I was all the way down to like 96 pounds. I can get deeper into it if you want, but I'll give the above the fold. And if there's a mine you want to dig, I'm happy sharing anything. And you know, part of what

Beau Beard (04:55.179)

Mm-hmm.

Brett (04:57.6)

I I it was a real life threatening situation where literally my heart, kidney, and liver were near failure. And I had to learn how to gain weight really quickly. And I remember at the time I was following a lot of bad advice as a teenager. I mean, this was when I was like 14, right? You're reading men's health, muscle and fitness. This was right at the nexus of like low carb and low fat. So, like I was a baseball player. I just wanted to get ripped. I didn't think I needed carbs and

but what was really an issue is a lot of my friends at that point in my life were getting into like hardcore drugs. And I don't mean like, drinking and smoking pot, you know, in your parents' basement. I mean like some of these kids that I'd been friends with my whole life and played sports with were getting into like meth and coke and so at the time my parents were still kind of on the back end of a divorce. My social circle was changing. I didn't really know how to deal with a lot of anxiety and anger. So I trained obsessively.

Beau Beard (05:39.029)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brett (05:51.437)

got really obsessive about my diet. I mean, essentially developed orthorexia and what they call anorexia NOS. That's how I ended up in the hospital. And so I had gotten to a point where I had been there for quite some time. It was a really toxic experience. I mean, horrific. They treat you very much like you are just a patient that, you know, it's like, you're in here because you're scared of food. Well,

There were people in there that had been, there was a kid that had been beaten by his dad for not making weight in junior Olympic wrestling tournaments. A woman who had been left by her husband, as you know, just like with any drug or alcohol or anything like that. It it there's so many things that are the root cause, right? It's never what it looks like. And so essentially I had to get myself out of this hospital. And so I one day I had stolen two books from Barnes and Noble on a day pass. They let you go on.

Beau Beard (06:32.627)

Yeah.

Brett (06:43.084)

When your BMI got high enough, like the BMI is an accurate predictor of anything. And it was Nancy Clark Sports Nutrition Guidebook and Complete Conditioning for Football by Boyd Epley. And so I just studied everything I could to learn how to regain hate weight in a healthy way. Eventually got discharged from that hospital, put on 54 pounds in three months, learned more about strength and conditioning. I'm like, man, if this can do this for my life, what could it do for other people? So I was always fascinated with.

Beau Beard (06:47.263)

Mm-hmm.

Brett (07:11.618)

kind of how you could elevate human potential, psychology, behavior change. That's really what got me into it.

Beau Beard (07:18.507)

So I I can understand like the wanting to basically going from I'm thinking of like what is her name, Jillian Michaels that was on what is it, the biggest loser. Like you kinda you're in that realm, but you ended up, I mean, your master's was in like motor queuing, motor learning ish, right?

Brett (07:37.271)

Yeah, yeah. Attentional fo like the the masters was motor skill acquisition, motor learning, with an emphasis. My thesis was written on attentional focus and cueing. Yeah. So how how what we say via giving people an internal and external focus, which if you want to get into, we can, how that can impact performance, whether it's vertical jump performance, whether it's accuracy throwing darts at a board, whether I mean there's there's tremendous studies about it on shooting accuracy for gymnastics, for just about every sport and skill imaginable now.

but that that was my core skill set. And that tied into a lot of, you know, the the things that I experienced at the hospital. I mean, poor communication in a way nearly cost me my life getting one size fits all medical care. So I was always fascinated with all right, let's say you and I write similar programs. Well, how can we get the most out of our athletes now beyond adherence and everything? How can we make sure to maximize the effort and the strain and everything they give to a program? Well,

the words you choose and the relationships you build have an outsize effect on the amount of effort somebody will give. You know, and so that was a real big interest. I've always been interested in influence and persuasion and the hidden things that make us tick just as much as I am with the human body.

Beau Beard (08:49.675)

Brett, can I pause real quick? I apologize. I'm gonna fix this lens. It's gonna it's gonna affect me and I wanna be able to talk to you. Sorry. Give me thirty seconds and I'm gonna jump right back from where we were. I apologize, man. I'm still here, the camera's gonna go out though.

Brett (08:53.037)

No problem.

Yeah, no problem. Do your thing. No problem.

Brett (09:36.568)

For the record, it was really fun watching that.

Beau Beard (09:39.285)

Yeah, I don't I don't know if I broke my camera or if the lens got jacked by me putting a thousand Psi in the torque of trying to get that thing off, but it was gonna drive me nuts.

Brett (09:48.301)

I doubt. I bet I bet I bet I bet it might just be a setting that got tweaked or something like that. Yeah, I bet you're fine. Those things are pretty durable. But I'd I'd be nervous too. I I know how that feels.

Beau Beard (09:59.678)

I don't care about I just don't wanna be distracted trying to talk to you the whole time and that's how you

Beau Beard (10:25.055)

Does it here?

Beau Beard (10:31.88)

Old school.

Brett (10:35.061)

Old school.

Beau Beard (10:35.071)

Remanial focus.

All right, let's test your communication skills. We're gonna jump right back in, like we're on the back end of that question.

Brett (10:45.304)

Well, I just answered, so now it's on you.

Beau Beard (10:47.901)

I know, yeah, I know where I'm going. We're back anyways. Okay, so you were always interested in persuasion and exactly, you know, what we say but how we say it matters. Like, how did that come about though? Like, was that something that you learned as you were going through your journey, you know, in the medical world of almost, you know, running up against death, of what you maybe were perceiving of what was right or wrong in the world of like health and fitness versus what was told.

Brett (10:49.804)

Okay, go.

Beau Beard (11:16.661)

you know, what was actually going on from a health standpoint, or did that come as you were in the strength and conditioning realm being a coach and seeing, this is the bigger side of coaching, rather it not that physiology and, you know, programming and everything isn't important, but did you just see that was the the lever, you know, that made the most difference?

Brett (11:33.291)

No, I'd say, I mean, I'd say it definitely came about before. Now we could probably psychoanalyze or pathologize and and say, well, I was the child of divorced parents. You know, was there something maybe early in my age where I started to self-monitor and, you know, pay attention to little behaviors and things like that if you grow up? You know, I mean, my my parents had a great relationship for a long time. They were married 20 years. I think they were divorced for 20 years and now they're back together. but you know, when when you watch your parents go through a divorce, no matter what age, there's probably little things that you

You pick up. I know I was always kind of a self-monitor and somebody that watched people. I mean, even at parties, I would always be the person in charge of the music. I'd be fascinated with how that could change. And the nerd in me, from a scientific standpoint, I mean, I think one of my favorite articles I ever read was what was this called? It was something along the lines of the effects of ambient odor on slot machine usage. And it was, it was psychology about how, you know, what they pump into casinos in terms of sense.

Beau Beard (12:25.255)

yeah.

Brett (12:31.266)

How they increase or decrease people's spending. So the hidden world of things is always fascinating. But yes, it was it was absolutely, I could point to it being amplified when I was at the hospital and you'd have to do these like, you know, little group therapy sessions with you and all the other inmates there. And it was fascinating because like the the lady that was leading, and I go into depth on this woman because man, she was a very interesting character. She could have been like in the movie Misery.

She would ask questions hoping to get this answer from people. And you would see how the other patients would kind of just tell her what she wanted to hear. But then when the medical professionals would leave the room, they'd talk about what the real situation was. And so just observing how people will act in their own self-interest, how people will lie when it serves them, how they'll tell the truth when it serves them. I mean, we're all all of us are far more risen apes than we are fallen angels.

You know, and human nature has some certain universal truths that govern our behavior. And I think I've always just wondered, what the hell makes us all so weird? What makes me so weird? What what what makes me attracted to this person? And so it definitely came way before strength and conditioning. I just carried it over into that because you had to in the college setting. You know, you have a certain kind of legitimate authority where if these athletes don't do what you want them to do, you know, the head sport coach, there's gonna be clear ramifications.

When I started working in the private sector and somebody worth a hundred million dollars is paying me, but then they also have to listen to me, that power dynamic very much changes. So you have to learn what like levers you can push and pull to get these people to do things that they may not inherently want to do. I mean, think about how that maps onto cash based PT or anything like that as well. Like, like you you ultimately are after greater adherence. When you get greater adherence, when you get greater buy in, when you great get a better commitment.

You get greater outcomes. I mean, we always say that. More successful interactions lead to more successful interventions. That was our always like our initial core mantra at art of coaching. And so I always thought it was funny. I mean, you could look at a PT and it's like, well, I'm gonna do manual therapy. I'm gonna do needling. I'm gonna do this. Well, and you'd see some of them try to differentiate themselves by talking about jargon, you know, or trying to prove how smart they were or how long they've been in it, or they'd bring in some novel technique. But ultimately it's it's

Brett (14:58.326)

It's a combination of getting people results, but also relatability and knowing what's in their mind and knowing how to influence them that gets them those results. But most most professionals, whether it's in strength and conditioning or physical therapy, don't study that because one, it's not part of their core curriculum. Two, think about their continuing education credits. They're not incentivized to do courses on that. They're incentivized to do CEUs on the technical, tactical side. and then three, you know, we we would say that

It's been our experience early on when we first started these were the workshops that we do, certain people feel very self-conscious if they're told, hey, there's a better way that you could maybe frame that up or you could speak to this this way versus if somebody suggests a new technique. One feels less personal than the other. Does that make sense?

Beau Beard (15:46.07)

Hmm. no. This is going to be the problem of this podcast, is like everything you say, I have like 15 questions because I'm so interested in the subject. So three things, and then I'll let we'll try to keep them in the the ether here. You know, and you this is your subject matter expertise, but I always find myself telling, you know, docs and students and stuff like you may ask the, you know, in this scenario, the patient something, and they're always kind of putting on a mask, whether that's to

protect themselves, get, you know, them, you to think what they want you to think. Like, so that's kind of what we're trying to do, right? You're trying to play the detective behind the detective. Like, yeah, I want you to answer the question, but I also want to know what's actually going on, especially when it deals with pain or something. So that's one thing that I'd like your insight on. The other one is when you mention, which I agree a hundred percent, that we're basically trying to get buy-in, you know, build report and get adherence to whatever we need them to do, because most of the change is happening outside of our office

you know, even if we're the best in the world at, you know, whatever method. So the question there would be, well, how what do we actually do? Like what are the what are the best in the world that get great adherence to whatever it is, right? Whatever domain. and then the last question was, which I'll have to come back to because I literally just blanked on gonna be again be the problem of just like so many questions. So hit one of the two and then I'll keep like spinning this thing around.

Brett (17:03.874)

Well, selfishly, which one do you want me to answer first? 'Cause I can go a million directions too.

Beau Beard (17:07.187)

I want to know the adhere. So we get taught now it gets talked about of like the soft skills within the, you know, PT Cairo world. The, you know, we know that we what an orthopedic physician interrupts somebody every seven seconds is a stat that gets thrown around or something. So we we know, but then, you know, creating action around knowledge, that's what I think is lacking largely in our field for a variety of reasons. So it's like, what do we, what should we be focusing on?

Yeah, we have to know not to kill people and we've got to be good with our hands. We've got to be diagnostically sound. But if you're like, man, the the gold is getting people to buy in, getting adherence and building, you know, a good basically we call it a therapeutic partnership. That's just a relationship. What do the best in the world do, you know, whatever domain it is to get that done?

Brett (17:51.117)

Yeah. Well, I mean, the acid test and and the research supports this. The acid test for credibility is universally a combination of do they get it? Meaning do they understand what they're actually doing? Can they get me results? And do they get me? and the data supports all of this very clearly. I mean, if you look at there there's perhaps no profession that is more often sued than medical professionals due to people feeling like numbers or feeling like they were dehumanized by their doctors or what have you. So

All you have to do is again, if we're if we're going first principles, root cause, which many practitioners do in their practice, right? We're taught not to chase pain or anything like that. You're taught to look at systems, a systems-based approach of interconnectedness and relationships. Well, the biggest outsize factor on that is relationships and trust and buy-in. And it's also the hardest because again, most people's self-concept and identity, especially and we've had physical therapists. I mean, it's it's probably one of our number one attendees at our workshops now.

because the stakes are higher. They start seeing, you know, certain people at certain parts of their career don't worry about that because they're like, I'm just gonna be the best at this and this. And I'm gonna go to FRC level 12 for the big toe and all this. And then all of a sudden they see people walk out the door because people think they're a douchebag. or, you know, they can't meet them at a human level and they don't actually need like people dread going there or at the very least don't feel comfortable like speaking up as honestly as they normally would be. And then they come to us.

You know, and it's like, well, that's no, that's not why you should do that. You should do this because then there's nothing more common than, I mean, a bunch of my friends in the field, they're just like, I need to send this, this, I use guy as a universal term, this person to you. they're a brilliant therapist, but they just like they can't joe with our staff or they don't know how to sell or they don't know how to do this. So I I think when you people have to step back and see the board and they have to say, okay.

It's kind of like how they got people hooked on drugs in communities. You grow up and you see it everywhere. And then all of a sudden it like it gets in your system and what have you when you look at impoverished communities. It's the same thing that happens to these professionals. They come out of school, they're sold that knowledge is the ultimate differentiator in a very narrow domain. They get a certification or a license or their credential or their obviously PhD, whatever it might be. And then every bit of Con Ed is fed right back to that. And that's all they do. You know, it's never, I mean, think about this.

Brett (20:11.19)

We did, we did a survey for my doctoral work. Out of 285 coach development programs, 6% focus on interpersonal skills. So let's say a cash-based therapist wanted to do this right now. Where would they go? Who do they know that's doing it? You know, John Birardi might have done something like that with precision nutrition, but they weren't in-person experiential learning-based workshops. It was online curriculum. So, like what we did in in my doctorate is we looked at, okay, let's establish a need.

We understand that there's a need and a recognition that interpersonal skills are a huge part of the job. But now where can we go? How how are these developed? Because they can be developed. Well, they have to be developed in real time. You know, you have to practice interactions. You have to practice dealing with shifting contexts, you have to practice conflict and emotional regulation. And that's best done through in-person interactions that have a mix of theory, have a mix of role play or what we call social scrimmaging.

And then small group conversation or interaction. And so it's a systemic issue because these this stuff hasn't been talked about. And then outputs haven't been provided. And then you also have to work, you know, it generally tends to be, and I'm not trying to be rude, our core temographic tends to be people that are just more emotionally mature, meaning they're at a place in their life where they're okay receiving feedback. They they actually crave it. They're they're tired of not getting feedback, like they want to be told, hey.

Try this approach. We don't tend to market to, nor do we wanna pitch to young professionals who kind of feel like the answer is really in, you know, their th their third whatever course, right? they've got to understand that balance.

Beau Beard (21:56.188)

Don't you feel like that would be cutting the head off the snake if like not that this needs fixed per se? But I would agree that that's a huge issue is like you said, people are in this vortex of con ed. Well, before they step there, like, not that your job is to be a humanitarian or you know, philanthropically like driven, like, yeah, I'm gonna go save the world in this domain, but like, shouldn't that be in the core curriculum of, you know, PT Cairo or something that's talked about at a higher level that we're like, hey, before you go, I mean, like

in the curriculum because before you go down this journey, this rabbit hole, you might be falling on your face because of your interpersonal skills. And then you think it's X, Y, Z and you keep spending money. So isn't it like we're kind of trapping them? And then it's like, well yeah, once they realize we're ready. And I I get that that's not you're not the salve for that like problem necessarily, but like shouldn't we be getting it to them earlier?

Brett (22:46.872)

Without a doubt. I mean, that that was one of the biggest things that I was really thankful for is conscious coaching ended up being used as like a core text as as part of a curriculum. It now it is at Kansas State University and Maryville University and several others. because people aren't told what industry they're in. You know what I mean? You're you're in the human industry, like you're a coach, you're a guide. It doesn't matter if you're a physical therapist, an athletic trainer or whatever, a a a coach, a a leader, whatever.

Is just an imperfect person guiding other imperfect people through the gray area of their shit. And so, like, when you're thinking, hey, you're fundamentally working with who? Humans. Okay, let's start there. Human nature 101. But and then we talk about how everything's interconnected with physiology and the human body, but then we disconnect from the human animal. How does that work? You know what I mean? How does that work? Where like fundamentally, like,

What all you have to do is a pre-mortem. If you and I are creating a business, what's the number one thing that can make our business go bad aside from just a poor business model, pricing, differentiation, and all that? Well, shitty customer service, not understanding your audience. What's the number one thing when your audience goes somebody somebody's a subject matter expert listening? They're gonna go speak. The number one way for their speech to fail, no matter how knowledgeable, is not knowing their audience. So yeah, that's what I mean by it's a systemic issue. It starts at the school level.

you know, but i I think you also have to look at what a dr schools and universities want to make money, right? And so what they're gonna do is they're gonna sell you the drug that most people covet, you know, and so most people want to learn the trades and the techniques, they don't want to deal with the messy human stuff. And then to your point, that's what happens to them when they get out in the community. They realize, I mean, think about this like think how many social change efforts fail because you're not able to reach your community. So I had to give a speech at University of Memphis.

To a bunch of students coming out of grad school. And I said, Hey, congratulations on all the knowledge you've acquired. But if you don't know how to deal with human beings at their best and their worst, you are gonna be in for a rude awakening when you get out into the real world. Cause every day you're dealing with an entangled mess of emotions and complexities. And no amount of your knowledge is gonna solve those if you don't know how to engage with these people. I think what's scary, go ahead.

Beau Beard (25:06.293)

So no, I was just gonna say well, maybe finish your thought because I'm kind of gonna peel off here. I was just gonna say, what are some of the things is there anything, yeah. I I mean we'll be talking about your courses and your, you know, books and things, but like are there anything that have great overlap in terms of things we could be doing outside of like specific coaching and education in this realm? Is there any practices or I mean is it literally like

Brett (25:20.472)

Sure yeah.

Beau Beard (25:33.259)

Do you have a strong group of friends that you're interacting with and getting good feedback on your own shit? Is it, you know what I mean? Like, are we supposed to do Toastmasters? Like, is there anything else where like, God, if you could just do this? Cause I always like to give people a tangible thing. If they're like, dude, I can't fly out to, you know, Arizona tomorrow and take one of Brett's courses, but like, what can we do today to be like, hey, check your own stuff or start working on this? Like, what it what's out there?

Brett (25:39.064)

Yeah.

Brett (25:47.149)

No question.

Brett (25:55.243)

Yeah. I mean several. One, yeah, I I wouldn't recommend like a Toastmasters, but anything's better than nothing. The only reason I wouldn't recommend a Toastmasters is that's kind of a excuse me, a vacuum of of what it sounds like. You're giving speeches and toasts, right? I think one of the easiest things anybody can do is is most people probably listening to this or doing an internship or or residency or gainfully employed. You should create a system within your own, you know, organization of saying, hey.

Once a week or once a month, we're gonna get some case studies of maybe a difficult client or something where we've got to sell more packages, some kind of conflict-based scenario where there's gonna be some kind of pushback. And and why do you have to do conflict? Well, because if you're like, hey Jared, how's everything feeling today? Great. Well, I want you to do this. Okay, no problem. Like, what did you learn there? Right. That's like

If we want to remodel tissue with somebody's tendinopathy, we might do the Alfred Sid protocol because it's going to create overload. You need social overload. So thinking about what are two to three archetypes or or social scenarios that we run into that cause us trouble. Beth, how about you? Yeah, I got Mr. Johnson and he just doesn't really like talk that much. So it's really hard to build rapport. And then when I do try to pull stuff out of him, he kind of just acts defensive or doesn't want to talk. Okay, that's great. One.

Jimmy, how about you? Yeah, well, I mean, so-and-so always says they do their stuff, but they're clearly not getting better. And I've got to figure out this. So, like, literally, treat it like you would if you were a dietitian and you were doing a 24-hour food recall and you're trying to improve your diet. Do a 24-hour, 72-hour recall of different conflict-based interactions you've had and try to work on those at your workplace. Dedicate some time to that. You have to practice it. If you don't want to do that and you have such crippling social anxiety,

Try to just have a five minute conversation with somebody in a checkout line. Do you you've got to figure out what is specifically your kind of kryptonite. If it's talking people in general, that's one thing I can recommend. If it's you feel like conflict is bad and that means something's wrong, then getting in some kind of structured, I mean, the lawyers do this. We've worked with firefighters. People do mock trials. This is a very common thing.

Brett (28:12.682)

And so I think the number one thing is internal role play and start taking it seriously. You play a role every day in your life. role play is used by companies like Google. It's used successfully by organizations like NASA. And it's used, like I said, in mock trials. You can do those things, and we do it a lot with organizations. the thing I would recommend you don't just do, and it's not smart for me to say this because I have two books on the subject, is just read.

You know, I think that tends to be what people do is they go get a book and they're like, I read this book by Daniel Pink, or I read Super Communicators, or I read Conscious Coaching. Awesome. Yes, and re read those if you want. But communication is a skill and it's the fundamental skill that's put us at the top of the food chain, right? Like our ability to interact. So you're not gonna get better at conflict, persuasion, social interaction.

unless you add constraints and work against those constraints and get real time feedback and iteration.

Beau Beard (29:15.371)

Can I can I admit something here? I'm I don't feel like I'm an AA. I feel like I'm an RA. I'm like, why does role playing make me cringe? Like we had we so when I was at Logan University in St. Louis, they had just built basically observable treatment rooms, right? Camera, they could watch through a mirror as well, which is always just a little weird to me. And they're bringing people in from the public. Some people you wouldn't know if it's a real patient or an actor in some of these scenarios for a variety of reasons.

Brett (29:20.494)

Yeah, yeah, what's up?

Beau Beard (29:44.486)

Even that put me in this weird, like, again, you're obviously you're on alert because you feel like a lab rat. But even to this day, like we'll do some of this with like our front office staff of like, hey, if we have somebody that, you know, what are our three levels of you know conflict resolution? If somebody, you know, you know, XYZ. But even me, I play it off, and I'm just admitting this, like to the guy that literally this is what you do. Then I'll be like, well, this is what we do. But when it comes to like the role-playing thing, I'll be like, I just, I can't, like, is that just

Like my own shit, is it like I I mean I'm sure it is, and I'm not asking for like you to psychoanalyze me, but like everything about me when I hear a role playing like, I know I've been in I was in sales for three years after grad school before going to you know, graduate school or before, yeah, in between grad and under or yeah, undergrad and grad. and we had to do all that stuff and every time I was like, God. Like and I guess that's I don't know. Is that like a personality personality archetype? Is that just me being an ass? Like what?

Brett (30:41.218)

Well no, I think I think it's multifaceted. I mean like cringe can be does it you mean cringe like roll your eyes or cringe like it makes you nervous?

Beau Beard (30:49.135)

No, just like I'm I feel like it's to me, and I'm not saying it is. Yeah, a hundred percent. I'm like, dude, I don't need to do this. Yeah, I do need to do it. Like at this stage, I'm like, I need to do that just for reps. Like I get that I like I need it to roll off very easily and then it it does become owned, right? But even with my staff who I know should be doing it, because I want them to say certain things, I'll tell them what to say and then like, you got it? It's kind of like what you said about reading the book, and then I'm like, see you later. We're not gonna practice and I expect it to happen. Yeah.

Brett (30:51.682)

You feel like it's corny. Yeah, okay. So

Brett (31:19.03)

Yeah, well I one, it's multifactorial. I think some people cringe because they they associate it with some previous experience. Maybe they had to watch like a corny HR video, you know, at an early job, or they're used to like, hey, Deborah, I heard that you grabbed Paul's ass today. That's an no, you know? and then like so I think that can be one piece of it. I think another piece is just not putting the popular like the proper perspective on it.

and what I mean by that is, you know, w we had a strength coach kind of the first time he was like, I don't wanna do this. I'm not gonna play make believe. I go, really, like, what's your football team doing right now? It's it's fourth and one on the twenty yard line, yet they're out in half pads jogging through it, acting like it's a game and pumping in crowd noise. The military p the military plays war games. you know, like they're not actually fight like they're out there.

Beau Beard (32:04.715)

That's a really good point. Yeah.

Brett (32:11.266)

You know, literally just doing maneuvers in the Navy and the like against a pretend enemy. you know, then I boxed competitively in college. We would spar and somebody would have to play the opponent. So I think a lot of people, they confuse performance with perspective. And so they they don't bring a certain level of earnestness or like versa similitude or reality to it. So it becomes this self-fulfilling prophecy. Dude, I can tell you this. When I was getting ready for a boxing match,

Beau Beard (32:23.499)

Mm-hmm.

Brett (32:40.896)

If somebody half assed as my sparring partner, I'd kick their ass. And so, like, when I I tell people this, I go, You are not, we don't even call it role play. We call it social scrimmaging or social sparring. And we're like, You, you have a responsibility to prepare the person across the room to deal with these things. Cause they're so I and I remember one guy, I just said, Are you ever gonna deal with this? And he goes like, What? And I go, difficult people. He's Yeah. I go, Well, they you ever deal with somebody that raises their voice? Yeah. I said,

Well, do you not think you need to train for your job? And he's like, Well, I guess I never thought about it that way. So there's that version of it. I think some people get really I think a little bit of it becomes a defense mechanism where they're in front of people that they maybe feel like they're gonna be judged by, you know? And so what scares them is looking incompetent. And then so it's easy for them to just say, Well, I'm not gonna pretend. and they don't have a script to hide behind. So

From an instructional design standpoint, you really have to do a lot to say, hey, one, you're supposed to fail, but fail full speed. Two, I think it helps to give people actual rules. I mean, I can promise you this. Christopher Nolan's my favorite director of all time. I think I think Matt Damon knows he's not Odysseus. But when Chris Nolan says, Hey, like you getting paid millions of dollars depends on you acting like this.

Beau Beard (33:54.197)

Same.

Brett (34:05.464)

thing that's gonna be a cyclops and CGI is in front of you and you're really terrified, Matt Damon can see the bigger picture and do whatever he needs to do. You know? and I would say this that and we have good data to support this at our workshops, the people that tend to have the least amount of trouble with it are people in professions that it's more life and death. Firefighters go all in. We've had great job many of the people in the healthcare profession.

Come like trauma docs, things like that. Military, the most self-conscious people tend to be strength coaches. And so I and I remember talking to some of them about this. And I this firefighter played a 13-year-old girl of one of our attendees, like the 13-year-old daughter. And somebody goes, How can you do that? Because he like, I mean, he could have got an Emmy for this. And he goes, It's real simple. This guy said it would really help him, and I want to really help him, point blank. So you just put it's your ego. It's your ego.

Your past experiences and projection. It's normal. I usually have to go first and look dumb. You have to run it in front of pairs, not the whole room. And then you just have to name it. You have to be like, hey, here's a way to waste your time and money to like not make this real. And then congratulations. You're now not gonna learn anything. You know? And I always thought it was silly because so many people, they'll be like, yeah, like I'll I mean, so many physios will go do the

Produc they've tried the protocols on themselves or doing. They'll work on other physios, they'll trade services. Strength coaches will work at I'm like, Well, that's great if that's your job, but your job is to learn how to diffuse the angry customer as well and learn how to deal with these things.

Beau Beard (35:39.04)

Yeah.

Beau Beard (35:45.772)

Well that's I mean, you know this, and the more I've thought about it, it's and we talked about a a little bit about this a couple of weeks ago, is how much of any medical intervention is placebo? And then, you placebo is multifactorial. and then you look at the like conservative musculoskeletal realm and you're like, it gets real scary real fast of like, you know, the stat I throw out. We were just talking with an ER physician that was in here, is more often than not we make people worse.

So people over 50% of the time, people come to a PT at Cairo and they actually get worse. Yeah. And she goes, That's a terrible stat. Yeah. Over 50% of the time. And you're like, what do you mean worse? We either prolong or we exacerbate. Whereas if they would have just gone six weeks of doing their thing, their back pain would have resolved and we make it last eight. So I throw that out because again, it's like when we tell people, you're really, you know, you're in this, you know, humanitarian, this human field, and they're like, Well, you need good interpersonal skills, you need to workshop those skills.

Brett (36:13.71)

Really? I didn't know that.

Beau Beard (36:40.703)

And then we also realize, like, well, yeah, what you're actually doing is important. A, so you don't hurt somebody, but so you're picking the right, you know, method for whatever's going on. But like that is wrapped around so many things. And I just feel like nobody's talking about that. And not that I'm the person to teach that. And I know you're you're a big part for what you're teaching, but I just wish there was something out there that was like.

Listen, you could dry needle somebody, you could ART somebody, you could adjust somebody. And if you understood these five, I don't know, I maybe it's not five things, these five things about any time you deliver an intervention, they would be just amplified. And I I feel like that's true. I just I'm trying to now meander through this like, you know, bushcut maze of like, well, what the fuck is going on when we're actually treating people? Because nobody can double blind.

Brett (37:25.742)

Yeah.

Beau Beard (37:29.361)

me seeing the same ten people and then a different person see 'cause it's like every interaction is totally different based on literally, you know, the five minutes earlier, five minutes later. Like it's literally different.

Brett (37:38.319)

Well, and with that, with with that, I mean, there's research to support that your presence in and of itself is is a driver of adaptation, you know. And so the way somebody carries themselves as a professional, and and it can go either way, you know, some there are some athletes I I'm good friends with this coach who's pure like I mean, as by you as it gets, and the guy the guy just talks like a very calm Bobby Boucher and everybody, you know.

And that's that that is a has a very calming effect on the CNS for certain people. And then certain people would come to me because they like kind of having a very respectful kick in the ass. And so you're right. There's so many placebo-based things and complexities behind this. but I mean, that that's even more of a reason to study communication. I mean, you look at marketing, consumer psychology. People get PhDs in these things. And and I I would just dare anybody that

Beau Beard (38:22.571)

Mm-hmm.

Brett (38:29.154)

I I'm so glad that you brought that up about the cringe in the role play, because I would encourage anybody that still maybe feels that way, literally go talk to a trial attorney and and tell them that role play is silly. You know what I mean? And and just ask yourself really, is it a status thing that you're protecting? Or is it that you literally think that drilling constraint based social interaction in no way, shape, or form can make you more fluent in how to deal with people? I mean, that's silly.

You know, think about what any parent out there knows that's silly. Watch your kids. How do they develop social skills? You know, they see adults do it and then they play that role themselves. They mimic. So you're talking about mimicry too. And so it's just p folks just aren't familiar with the research and that's fine. And things that scare people tend to make them, you know, retreat into these ego defense mechanisms. And it's easy to start rationalizing and justifying. I think what's funny is then they'll complain about a patient doing the same thing.

Beau Beard (39:02.891)

Mm-hmm.

Brett (39:26.35)

They'll say, why doesn't this patient? Literally, somebody will say, Why doesn't this patient adhere to this protocol? And I go, why don't you do this? And they're like, Well, that's two different things. I'm like, you avoid hard conversations. They avoid doing their protocol. How is that different? I go, at the end of the day, what you have to look at is it's not the thing they're avoiding, the conversation or the protocol. It's what the thing represents, right? A a loss of self-image, the fear of change, the fear of, you know,

Beau Beard (39:29.428)

Yeah.

Beau Beard (39:52.105)

Yeah.

Brett (39:56.405)

any of these things. I mean, some people self-sabotage because they're actually scared of success. And so when people look at the things that make other individuals resistant to change, it's just a mirror of the very same things that you resist. You just haven't gotten to that core theme of what you're really not. Or people will say like I don't get we we had one P brilliant PT. He's like I'm really upset that nobody will pay for this package or whatever. I go, dude

You've talked to me about coming to our speaker school for four years and you've never done it. And he goes, Well, it's $799. And by the time I do flights, it's like $1,300 or whatever. I go, and what's the price of your service? I go, everything value is subjective. The truth is, I go, and you're not hurting my feelings. You don't value it enough to invest in it. And that's fine. But just don't act like you do then. And then don't criticize your customers.

when they're not buying something that clearly they just don't see the value in yet. So you've got to find another angle.

Beau Beard (40:59.051)

So what are whether it's, you know, in the way we communicate, the way we just generally present ourselves, what are just some common pitfalls that we could throw out there that people are like, ooh, I do that? Because we've talked kind of concept, right? You need to get better at these skills. We really haven't named specific skills or right the tripwires. So what are some things people can catch themselves on where like, yeah, you may realize like, they're not going great in terms of you know interactions with certain personality types or people?

But are there anything in you know whether it's your marriage with your friends with talking to patients that you find yourself saying things a certain way or getting defensive, are there things that really stick out to you where you're like, hey, if you do these things, you will keep tripping over the same problems, even if you went and read your books and went to a course and you can start working on those things today by being aware of them.

Brett (41:51.791)

Sure. I mean, one of them is just not not being not having kind of a a vocabulary around what you're witnessing. Like we talk about how great communicators are rare and it's an acronym for different communication styles. So there's the realist, the analyst, the relator, and the empathizer. A realist, you know, is gonna be more direct, straightforward to the point. I tend to skew that way. I'm also a relator. I'll use dumb jokes, metaphors. I I like to make people laugh.

Beau Beard (42:10.795)

Mm-hmm.

Brett (42:20.986)

an analyst is somebody who's obviously more just very analytical, going to use a lot of logic, data. And then an empathizer is somebody that's really going to go deep in in terms of you know, trying to build that that that connection. And I think sometimes people just not realizing the type of like where this individual is that they're interacting with. And it's not like you need to completely go their direction. We would never, you need to be you, but you need to at least code for that. You need to understand that.

Beau Beard (42:45.387)

Uh-huh.

Brett (42:48.31)

I mean, most physios that we meet that come to our courses are are pure analysts. Like they're always trying to logic and educate and use facts and statistics. And that doesn't move the needle for everybody. I mean, logic, it's pre it's it's been proven. And this is probably if you gave me one thing that I could give people based on the question you just ask, is quit thinking logic changes behavior. It doesn't quit trying to educate people into behavior change. People know they need to get more sleep.

Beau Beard (43:07.243)

Mm-hmm.

Brett (43:18.146)

They know they need to brush their teeth. They know they need to exercise. They know they need to eat better. It has been proven over and over again when it comes to behavior change, logic and only using logical appeals is one of the quickest ways to not only get people to not do something, but to dig their heels in and become even more entrenched. People don't like to feel stupid. People don't like to feel talked at.

successful marketing and most of the most successful marketing campaigns of all time get people to question things, to feel something. I mean, if you've seen madmen, Don Draper does such a great job of this. And and this is also proven in the research in the sense that, you know, our prefrontal cortex is not what makes decisions for us. Right. Like our brain isn't separated like that. You always have the limbic system constantly whispering

To other parts of our brain. And we are very much fear-driven creatures. And so getting people to feel like there may be mill, you have to appeal to people's self-interest. And you have to think, what does this person literally want? What do they fear? And you have to ethically learn how to push on that bruise. So thinking, Mr. Johnson, if we could get you back to doing this or more can adherent to this protocol, you can pick up your five-year-old daughter again. You can play with them in the backyard.

You don't have to s cringe when they they say they want to go ice skating or rollerblading. Speak to those emotional moments. Speak to the core of who they are and who they identify with as a person. Don't try to educate them being like, well, you know, deadlifts are better for your back. You know, it's just like, okay, thanks. So I think understanding what people fear, always speaking to their self-concept. when I had athletes that they're like, you know, I'm I'm

The rookie of the year, and I'm gonna get this contract and I want money. They're telling me how they want me to influence them. They're literally giving it to me. So when he didn't want to do kind of our early GPP phase and focus on eccentrics or 10, you know, tempo based training, I'd be like, man, it's really it's gonna be hard to get that contract when your ass is on the bench for a third year in a row with tendonitis, you know, and then he'd look at me and be like, screw you. I'd be hey, bro, you're the one that wants to get money. I'm just talking it. So

Brett (45:37.995)

Understand their self-concept. When you understand their self-concept and how they see themselves, you're going to be able to influence them more. Quit thinking logic changes behavior. It does not. It does not. and ultimately remember that self-interest is the most reliable predictor of human behavior we have. So if you want somebody to adhere to something, you have to be able to align your pitch with the things that they care about most or they identify with most.

And it's not a fair fight. Mo most people want them to like, well, just tell me, can I just use motivational interviewing? No, as it turns out, you actually have to fucking care and spend time doing this. And and and if you don't want to do this, that's okay. Go be an accountant. Like just get in a get in a profession where you don't have to worry about these things. but you're dealing with the most complex creature on earth. And above all else, it's your ability to connect with them.

or your refusal to that is gonna largely determine your success as a practitioner over the long term.

Beau Beard (46:43.467)

God, you're speaking to so many things that that circle around like I'm just thinking my group of friends in the clinical world that are trying to kind of raise the bar, right? This is what we end up talking about. It's not techniques. And you know, sometimes you're you're talking about all the sciencey geeky stuff that you're like, God, this is what we got to get better at and become more aware at. And it just kind of I was laughing as you're saying the motivational interviewing because, you know.

little bitty parts of what you're talking about come into, you know, normalcy within our profession, right? The A motivation to intrinsic motivation chart. I'm just picturing that in my mind. Everybody's like, that's what I'm doing. Right. I want to find out their, their motivation and match marry my goal to or get their goal to be my goal, my goal to be their goal. And we marry them and we walk hand in hand in this therapeutic partnership. But like you said, it like, do you care? Or are you just trying to game the system because that's what you're told to do and then they're going to pick that up because we're like, you know,

That's our job as a human is to kind of like figure this shit out subconsciously. But the the question I wanted to ask, and I don't know, again, if you're like, that's too specific. When we're talking about, you know, like that self-protection that, you know, we're gonna basically self-interest is the driving feature for every decision we make. What about those patients? Cause this is something that gets talked about a lot, and I think it's getting overblown too, of this like,

You know, centrally mediated chronic pain patient, you know, fear avoidant behavior. They're a non-coper, non-responder. And literally, I'm just thinking of a patient I had, and she's literally like, I have like health anxiety. I'm so scared to do this. Where their their self-interest seems to be the thing that is literally hindering any further progress, right? The self-interest of like, I have to keep myself safe. And you're like, that is the thing, right? Now and now I see where I'm like, I'm logicing them. I'm like,

Brett (48:20.024)

There's

Beau Beard (48:28.819)

That's the thing that's keeping you there. And they're like, Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, like they're I mean, I'm think I'm just using a broad example here. Somebody that's like, everything you throw at them, it hurts. And then you can prove from an examination and stuff, you're like, okay, this isn't an injury. And you try not to logic that because you know, I I feel like I'm adept enough now where I'm like, I I'm not gonna get over that hurdle by telling them why this is an injury, but then you have to play the game of, okay, well, how do we get them?

Brett (48:33.194)

Yeah, they don't they don't they don't want to strain.

Beau Beard (48:58.195)

To realize first consciously, then subconsciously, you are okay. But then they literally, they're it to me, and maybe I'm just not good enough, it seems that their driving feature or self-interest feature is I have to protect myself at all costs due to whatever life circumstances led them there. How do we are there any tips that you can be like, okay, in those scenarios, if that is the conflict we're trying to resolve, like, hey, here's a couple of suggestions, anything on that?

Brett (49:13.389)

Yeah, yeah.

Brett (49:24.098)

For sure. And I I I had a client like this once. And I mean, disclaimer, this guy was medically cleared. So nobody needs to like come at me for right. This guy was clear. So, but this was a long-standing issue where we knew this guy was kind of, it was psychosomatic, right? And so I played the game a little bit. You know, he was always talking about how he had pain doing push-ups. And back when he was in the military, he could do all these push-ups and he's kind of grieving his past a lot, you know, and and he would get rewarded for that.

Beau Beard (49:32.363)

Right, which that's always our first job. Right. Yeah. Like no red flags. Yeah.

Beau Beard (49:40.202)

Mm-hmm.

Brett (49:52.437)

And and there's a core principle in that that I'll come back to. What gets rewarded gets repeated. And so for a lot of these fear or avoidant based patients that are being spoken to in this question, you have to remember that they're they're the nutrient they crave is attention in some cases. And they're getting them. okay, we don't need to do that. We need to do that. And so they're getting a lot of that, whether they know they're doing that or not, they're getting attention. So I remember I I started to think about like, all right, I'm gonna give this guy a different kind of incentive.

So I'm like, well, you know, so all pushups hurt you? And they're like, yeah, yeah. And I go, okay, so try this. I go, I've had success with a client. You know, just externally rotate a little bit here and try this. Does that hurt? Yeah. I go, okay, this one might make it feel better. We started three or four and I go, Does that one hurt? I was just trying to bore him at this point. And he's like, No, that one feels good. It's kind of like Goodwill Hunting, where he's like, You read those books? And Will's No, I haven't read those. And he goes, Then eventually he goes, You read those? And then he goes, Yeah, yeah, I fucking read those books.

Beau Beard (50:44.219)

Yeah.

Brett (50:50.21)

So I finally found a push-up that didn't hurt this guy. I'm like, awesome. I and I overdo it. I'm like, dude, that is progress. That's amazing. We got some. Let's build off of this now. So I repeat this for a couple other very self-limiting exercises to the point that even if this guy wasn't clear, there was nothing gonna happen to him. And I start giving him praise for overcoming the very things that other, you know, in the past, like he he would get praise for the other shit. Or not praise, but attention, right? Attention. And

Beau Beard (51:06.699)

Yeah. Yeah.

Beau Beard (51:17.643)

Mm-hmm.

Brett (51:19.862)

All of a sudden we start crafting a new identity. You know, we build off of this. And and that's the issue. It's like you can't like we can try to prove the movement is safe 10 ways and it still won't work because somebody's aiming logic at fear or a a faulty kind of reward mechanism. And so when you th that you have to kind of rewire what that self-interest means to them. And so I think you look, you look at some of that stuff and you think, okay.

What is the pattern that I've seen here? You can't argue a scared person into being brave. You have to kind of create a staircase so low that they almost take the first step by accident, you know, and then their body tells the truth and you reinforce it with the, with the praise there. So there's there's like five different archetypes that you can you can like pull that out of. And I love a war. I used to like lose my mind working with folks like that, but now it's just.

It's really fun. Like help them find something that reliably reliably plays out. Don't use logic. Right. Once again, you're not I'm not trying to argue with the reward. I make certain things self-evident. And then we just start to peel back those identity layers little by little. You know, does that make sense what I'm saying before I go on?

Beau Beard (52:36.267)

Yeah. And I I would like to think, and again, I asked the question for my own, you know, self interest of k how do I get better at it? And I I mean I can recognize some of that. And then it's just sometimes you run up against it. And now I'm with you. It's like the game within the game now. Like I'm always kind of internally smirking. Like, okay, we're gonna like I always I think it's a confidence that I'm like, I'm always gonna get there, right? Especially when I know it's safe. They're not in harm. They're not actually gonna get injured. It's like, well, just how do I do it? Now I don't like

run myself into a brick wall of like, it's not working. I'm failing. This is frustrating. They're frustrated with me. They're probably going to tell other people I suck. Like that's kind of out of the realm for me. But I think about those new grads or somebody, you know, because chronic pain has become such a conversation piece. We're so aware of, God, like make sure there's, you know, are we paying attention to past emotional trauma, you know, previous injuries, or like all these things. Like, yeah, but we're all, we're all dealing with all the same shit. I could sprain my ankle and I still have an emotional response to it.

The second it happens, right? I can't do XYZ. Like, it doesn't matter. But I just I love your take on it of the identity shift because I think a lot of people that come into our office, like ours in particular, where it's very movement forward. Yeah, we're still doing hands-on stuff. It's an identity shift just from like what they've had done in the past. Like, yeah, I know you might have felt better with that stuff or got out of pain, but like, not to say I would think that what we're doing is, you know, evidence based and the best thing out there right now, but it's like,

You also gotta you gotta move your ass. Like you gotta move, you gotta exercise. And like that is an identity shift. And then if we for us, we can almost use that product, right? Placement to shift the identity. So it's not completely, okay, let's get your foot to hurt less, do an XYZ, build praise into that. What's that lead to of what you can do in your life? But it's also like, hey, there's a new way to look at what we should be doing in general. And I think that kind of helps us. I don't know. Am I wrong? Right.

Brett (54:30.07)

Yeah. No, this is no, no, you're brilliant with this. And because this is how it you when you watch a good comedian, you know how they always bring it back to something at the beginning. So I'm gonna do that here real quick with what you talked about with the cringe role playing and this, because I want your audience to internalize this for a minute. And and it's always risky for me to do this because when I show people a mirror, they either hate me or love me for it. You know, like it's it's true, you know what I mean? But like

Beau Beard (54:37.348)

yeah.

Beau Beard (54:56.021)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brett (54:57.39)

and so this is always a risk. This is why I'm definitely not for everybody because but when you think about this, this person, what are they protecting? It's easy to say, well, they're protecting their shoulder and they're protecting this. But let's let's get again. You talked about these are avoidance, self-limiting kind of symptom holding on, like these people are holding on to something. So when you look at say, all right, what are people like this protecting in general and how does it map onto the rest of us?

Same thing of why people don't want to role play or do anything new. Self-image, right? Self-image is there's a threat there. There's a threat to their self image, something in their self-image, and I can't psychoanalyze everybody. That's not my scope, but there's something there. Like it's better to be like, well, I could if I wanted to, right? They have to keep that intact. It's a face saving story. By the way, this maps onto relationships wonderfully as well. Everybody knows somebody.

Who is just like, well, I'm done with this relationship. That person's a narcissist. Da-da-da-da-da-da. Like we all make our excuses in relationships. It's a face-saving, like sometimes it's true, but there's also elements that are a face-saving story. so the excuse becomes a respectable cover for avoidance. some people, in this case, this gentleman wanted connection and care. The more he showed distress, the more he got looked after, you know, the longer he could get on the table. And that felt really good to him.

That gives people the number one thing they crave, which is control. People in any circumstance want control. They want control over uncertainty. They hate uncertainty. they want control over a perceived threat. So when a lot of people do this, that avoidance and all of that is they're managing their biggest fear. And so for them, whenever they feel overwhelmed, playing small feels really safe. Right? They feel really safe and nobody's gonna crank the intensity. God.

Because now you've cranked the intensity past the dial and that's taking me into the unknown and the uncertain. And now you're threatening the identity I settled into because I like this identity. It keeps me comfortable. So it's all self-concept and you understand the self-concept, you understand identity, you understand what they're protecting. Now you can triage.

Beau Beard (57:10.931)

And I think we're taught that in a way, right? We're I mean, there's all these quotes from all of our old Eastern European, you know, practitioners that basically rehab is showing them the thing they think they couldn't do. But like you're saying, like they know the expected outcome of playing small. They know it's gonna be, attention, stop, put the brakes on, don't do that thing. Like, how you doing, you okay? Do you need a band aid? Versus I we're told we're sp but we think it's show them they s something they couldn't do physiologically.

Right. you couldn't do X because your back is you couldn't hinge because your disc is prolapse. So it's like it way like ninety nine percent what you were saying, one percent right of the time, it's probably what I'm saying, but we think of it the opposite in our realm. We're like, no, no, no, I'm not gonna do that.

Brett (57:55.009)

Yeah, people the pe people are trying to prove them wrong through logic and explaining, but you're fighting their reasoning. You you don't fight their reason. Their reason is a story that they're gonna hold on to. You have to fight the thing their reasoning is defending. You know what I mean? And for some people it's just they don't want more expected of them. I remember my even my dad. My dad went through a horrible hip surgery and and all this, and he was going through rehab and he definitely had to you know the guy needed him to squat to parallel, you know, and

My mom's like, Your dad won't squat to parallel. You need to talk to him. My dad goes, I was told that it's not. I shouldn't you know, the YouTube and I go, Dad, I go, Dad, and pardon my language, I go, You take a shit this morning? And he goes, Yeah, I go, Did you stand up from the toilet? Yeah, so what? I go, You squatted to parallel. I go, shut up and do what the PT tells you.

You know what I mean? But then that just makes that different works with family because he's Well, now my mom goes, Well, congratulations, Brett. Now your dad's or ordered toilet extenders, which I didn't know existed. And they allow him to sit up higher. Yeah, of course he did. And I think about this, like, so I'm single for the first time in 15 years of my life. and I I dated for a very short period of time. And I stopped dating because I think I went on like six dates, every one of them

Beau Beard (58:55.685)

That was his resolution.

Brett (59:12.504)

Talked about their ex for the first 10 within 10 minutes, the ex came up. In the one that didn't, in the one that didn't, she was asking me what I did for a living. And I'm like, this is loaded. So how do I answer this question? And I'm like, well, you know, I, I, I I help people deal with miscommunication, conflict resolution, and behavior change. I try to keep it very vanilla. And she goes, that's fascinating. You know, I have a minor in psychology. Tell me more about that. And

We had she told me about her sister and it was a related topic. How do I get my sister to do this? And I was like, you know, you've you've got to think about what they're protecting because that's what their ego is in service to. And, you know, they're gonna the thing that they're most defensive about. And she's like, ooh, we'd never work out. And I go, yeah, tell me why. And like, by the way, I think we had gotten past what's your name and like where'd you go to, you know, like so like I yeah, I I right and I I love how like all of a sudden we were gonna get married.

Beau Beard (01:00:03.221)

You just went mile deep.

Brett (01:00:09.076)

And she goes, cause you're gonna make me examine things about myself that I don't want to. And then I'm like, cool. Well, I'm like, nice knowing ya. you know, like, but like there was so much I was like, well, one, that's not what I would try to do, but that's interesting where you took that. But even dating has been an interesting reflection of this. And that's the beauty of it is when when so many of the practitioners that you work with listen to this, hopefully they map these concepts onto, shit.

Beau Beard (01:00:29.707)

I'm sure.

Brett (01:00:38.316)

That's why my my teenage daughter's fighting me. That's why my my husband hasn't been as intimate with me as I maybe like. That's why this person's not doing their protocol. We're it's all the same thing. It's all the same thing. Like people try to hammer their beliefs directly when they try to change behaviors. Man, you have to take the indirect approach to influence. The number one thing is get them in a psychological state where they don't even know what you're doing.

You know, like so the other day to give a an example, because I never want to just talk in in theory, I was talking to a buddy and I was asking him if he wanted to, you know, get together later this year. We were trying to work out logistics and he was fighting me on it and fighting me on it and fighting me on it. Eventually I was just like, okay, let's change subjects. Have you seen this show? We started talking about a show. I got him to kind of chuckle a little bit. By the end of it, he goes, you know, I might be able to make November work.

And and somebody might say, well, you're, you know, you're manipulative. You shouldn't do that to people. One, I'd tell you to look up the definition of manipulate. It means to wield a tool skillfully. Two, I don't do this to people unethically and I don't teach people how to do it unethically. You know, but unless you guys, you know, lit unless anybody that's listening to this that is cringing has a tool that can change their mind automatically for people, you need to understand that you need to learn these skills because it's really about.

Beau Beard (01:01:49.547)

Mm-hmm.

Brett (01:02:03.19)

And if you needed a soundbite for this episode, your main job as a practitioner is to change behavior and manage stress, physiological stress, psychosocial stress, all of that. And you do that first by creating the conditions where these people start to drop their ego defense mechanisms and become receptive to your interventions. Okay. And that usually leads to building rapport and genuine trust and relationships, not shoving logic down their throat.

Okay. And so like it's good when you make people question themselves on their own because now they feel like they're not being robbed of agency. Now they own the shift. And then like that's where I tell some people, I'm like, Do you want to be right or be effective? You know, like, don't worry about being right. Let the other person feel like they have the power. You know, because people will tell stories about who they are and why they do what they do.

Beau Beard (01:02:55.679)

Mm-hmm.

Brett (01:03:00.674)

You know, but let the behavior tell the ultimate truth. Just let them feel like, that's a great idea, Mrs. Anderson. What do you think might do that? Like start leading them down the path. And I mean this appropriately. It is a seduction. It's kind of an act of slow ethical seduction and make that person feel like they're in control. Allow them to be in control and realize they're not going to defend what's rational. They defend what makes them feel less exposed. That's your job. Make them feel less exposed, guide them along the way.

Beau Beard (01:03:12.939)

Mm-hmm.

Beau Beard (01:03:31.723)

Well, this may seem like a hard pivot, but I don't think it will be. Like, if you haven't read Brett's first book, Astronomy, I'll put links to all this stuff. Very, very good book. We've touched on the topics within that. But like your next book is on leadership. All we've talked about is communication. Is the bridge to leadership, communication? You defined leadership a while ago. Is that the actual definition or is that, you know, we're just passing by that?

Brett (01:03:54.169)

So a lot of the things we've talked about in this episode have primarily been about my new book, how to dig in past the ego defense mechanisms and and the messiness of behavior change. This book because it leadership at its core is a complex reciprocal process of influence, right? Like you're it nobody, it's not about just one person's in charge, right? Even in a situation where it is hierarchical and there's a CEO. I mean, power resides where people believe it resides.

Beau Beard (01:03:58.219)

Okay.

Brett (01:04:21.346)

That CEO depends on other people doing their jobs as well. So the book is

Beau Beard (01:04:24.747)

But is power is power synonymous with leadership or

Brett (01:04:27.694)

No, not not formal leadership. If you were to go into I love this question because I was just in Brazil and we were talking about this. Even the person in the poorest favela has power. Power is defined as the in in in psychology and in the context in which we're discussing power, right? We're not talking about the ability to produce force or like so like power is defined as one's capacity. It is important to get the vernacular right on this.

Beau Beard (01:04:48.582)

Yeah.

Brett (01:04:56.032)

As one's capacity to create change in another's psychological environment or just to create change, capacity. So power can come in the form of money or resources, but it can also come in the form of mutual respect. If you are my mentor and you're a thoughtful kind, I mean, you just as a friend that I've gotten to know within the past two months, you have a form of power over me. If you need genuine help or you need a listening ear, you can leverage what's called referent power.

Which is power associated with likability and mutual respect against me. My six-year-old has referent power that he can leverage against me. So even even somebody in the most impoverished area that doesn't have access, that is in in a horrible situation, and and doesn't have any form of traditional privilege, they have power. They have relationships they can leverage. And so in the book, we in the book, we go through what are the most what we index various forms of power.

So that no matter where you are in your life or your career, you can get an idea of how can I wield this tool to get past this form of resistance to change. And then we talk about 13 different influence tactics, all of which map onto those various forms of power. So once again, whether you're trying to get your neighbor to quit getting his dog to take a shit in your lawn, or you know, you want your significant other to remember date night, or you want your staff to, you know, quit being lazy and act as if it's actually their company too.

We give you all kinds of ways that you can use these in real life scenarios studies. We give you a little codex so that you understand how to really create behavior change. And that is the essence of leadership. Yes, the marrow and sinew of leadership first and foremost is communication, because that's how leadership's enacted. But leadership itself is a process of influence. So if people say, Well, I don't want to learn about power and I don't want to learn about psychological influence.

Beau Beard (01:06:37.344)

Mm-hmm.

Brett (01:06:47.852)

I'd question why you want to be a coach, leader, or practitioner in any capacity, because that's the job. That's what the book's about.

Beau Beard (01:06:52.811)

But you're kinda well, and that well, and that's why I wanted to ask the definition because and I want to hear your answer on what are we getting wrong about leadership 'cause that's kind of how you open the book. But every everybody is a leader in some capacity. If you have ki I mean, we would hope, right? So then it's being aware of what you're doing.

Brett (01:07:05.975)

No question.

Beau Beard (01:07:10.857)

Right. Like you said, you're going to influence people. You're going to, you're always doing it. But being it's like that five second gap or second gap of meditating or getting a pause before you say something, right? That pause between think and say of like, I am doing this. Could I do it a little bit better? I'm actually being, you know, analytical about the process taking place. But when we see, you know, I mean, God, you probably know how old the first, you know, maybe that goes back to like Seneca or it something, a leadership book, but like

What do we have wrong about leadership? And we're like, okay, yeah, Brett's company's, you art of communication, he's taught about communication. Now he's talking about leadership. And people are like, I've been to this leadership thing. I've read this book about leadership. What do we have, you know, like granularly wrong where you're like, okay, principally just like this stuff needs to be thrown out when we're talking about the concept of leadership and this is what we should reinstall?

Brett (01:07:59.585)

Yeah, well, I think first I think the most important thing to ground this for your audience is I didn't sit out to write a book about leadership. I I had a quarter life crisis at where I asked myself, like, am I a good coach? And so I started going down this rabbit hole of like what makes an effective coach. And that took me down the path of like, well, coaching is a process of social influence. It took me right to the front door of of leadership research because a good coach is fundamentally somebody that can influence and change behaviors and and what have you. And and

Coaching first and foremost is a social activity done with social beings and social environments. So that took me down the rabbit hole of, wow, this this needs to be a book. If anybody wants to be more effective as a practitioner, as a coach, as a leader, it's all synonyms for the same shit. Right. Like the social dynamics are where the answer is. And and that's that whether that's Winston Churchill trying to get people to, you know, do what he needed them to do in World War II. And so then I was like,

What if I wrote a book about all the bullshit of what people think makes a good leader? Because you know how many people come to me and I'm sure you too, they feel like they deal with imposter phenomenon. They feel like, you know, they're, they're, they're people pleasing. And I'm like, this is the book. So I start writing about like what are the leadership myths we hear. And the book opens with like just kind of taking a dump, not to be edgy, but dump like a dump on this like societal narrative.

Where, like, if you're good at what you do, you have all the answers, you have it figured out, you have this fucking opt- sorry, I shouldn't say this optimized routine, you've rubbed fruit linements on your skin by 3 a.m. You've answered all your emails. You should have been. I mean, if people saw your skin, I can only compare you to Ryan Gosling. And like, me being a single man now looking at you, there's no fucking hope. There's no hope when people like you exist.

Beau Beard (01:09:36.039)

I felt personally attacked by that one. I mean, God.

Brett (01:09:51.712)

Unless somebody likes more of a Tom Hardy vibe. Like I don't even know how your hair does what it does. This took me 20 minutes.

Beau Beard (01:09:58.336)

This is yeah, it's a Mediterranean salve that I have brought over by, you know, Pixies. But yeah. moving on from the skincare routine.

Brett (01:10:06.284)

Yeah, yeah. You do you inject the peptide? Do you inject the peptide right into your third eye? Okay.

Beau Beard (01:10:11.315)

A hundred percent. Yeah. And then that's after that's after butthole sunning, but we'll talk about all that after. Yeah. Yeah.

Brett (01:10:16.044)

Beautiful. So yeah, the the point being, and I'll keep it tight, is like, I just got tired of seeing really good people question themselves and feel like they're not capable. And I don't want to raise my son in a world where you have to have no skeletons in your closet. You have to meet all these kind of squeaky, clean, heroic persona bullshit. That's not true. And by the way, the book then looks at people that even we thought to be that and takes away that facade.

And like Martin Luther King, we talk about in the book. And this isn't to disparage Dr. King. If anything, this humanizes him and makes him more somebody we should celebrate. Committed infidelity, attempted suicide. You have John F. K. JFK Jr., who abused corticosteroids, but various forms of barbituits, anabolic steroids. I mean, part of that was the immense pain he dealt with with his Addison's disease. But even people that society has held up to us as these golden geese.

Beau Beard (01:11:09.163)

Mm-hmm.

Brett (01:11:13.848)

They, it's survivorship bias. So the first part of the book talks about everything you know about what what you need to like look like or be like or feel like internally to be a good leader's horseshit. And that doesn't mean you have to lead a company. It just like to be somebody that fundamentally is capable of like helping people. the second part of the book is all about, okay, now let's deal with the other aspect of what it takes to make a difference in the lives of others, leading. how do we do a social influence, resistance to change?

Egos, difficult personalities, conflict, things that will be relevant both now and a thousand years from now. And how do we do it in a way that is not prescriptively reductive? You know, I read a book once where it was like, if somebody says this to you, just say that. And I'm like, you gotta be fucking kidding me. Like that really, that like what interact and it was a hundred pages of that, and I'm like, what?

Beau Beard (01:12:07.413)

We we wish it could only be that easy. Yeah. Or that simple.

Brett (01:12:11.992)

world do you live in? And so the book is not about, hey, I want to be a leader and run for local government. Like, I mean, yes, sure. Like the book is if you fundamentally ever felt like you didn't fit the mold of what society tells you you need to look like and be like and whatever to make a fucking difference or be good at what you do and and or be amongst the best at what you do, let me tell you the truth. And then two, the other half of the book is how to deal with the world as it is, not as we'd like it to be.

Beau Beard (01:12:37.493)

When do you I'm just curious on this, this is not a segue, but do you think some of the the leadership obviously social media gives us a a view, you know, into whether we want to call that personal life or just like the perceived personal life of people? But I just heard somebody speaking the other day of how, you know, maybe in a couple of years AI will reveal everybody's skeleton. So it's almost like a preempt of everybody's like, I want to appear like squeaky clean, I've got the great routine, I am great, and a pr or is it like

We've always been like this. We've always wanted to put on this song and dance of like I'm a leader and I'm pristine until it's like, I didn't know that shit. And then you're like, everybody's like this. I I just feel like we're in a weird realm where we're seeing we're seeing behind the lens, but it's still people put on their best face and then here pretty soon the thought would be, Well, there won't be a lens to look behind. Everybody's gonna stand on even ground. I don't know.

Brett (01:13:24.878)

Sure. Brilliant point. Yeah. I mean, we're all trying to be the hero because the heroic facade is what we're sold, right? But like, look at, and this we talk about this in the book too, look at this sociocultural movement that's happened in the last, let's call it 15 to 20 years. Really, I mean, it goes back longer than that, but it's been amplified. Look how popular anti heroes are becoming, right? Because we we understand that we live in a world where one perfection's impossible, conflict's inevitable, misunderstandings are the baseline.

Beau Beard (01:13:45.215)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brett (01:13:54.337)

Influencing people is really messy and leadership's complicated, both in your own household and any other part of your life. you know, and that's so that's why we use the term anti or I'm like, I'm not selling edgelord rebellion, I'm selling realism. Like, this is a book of how to deal with it. And and I can't wait until like we have to do this huge kind of media thing as the book it starts like tomorrow, and somebody's gonna find something. They're gonna be like, yeah, why should we take communication advice? Somebody already said it once.

From somebody that's divorced, you know, or they'll find things to like, you know, well, this guy cussed, he shouldn't be a leader. It's like, well, one, w what in the title of my book made you think that I'm pitching being a a a perfect role model? You know what I mean? I I'm very public. And two, with the divorce thing, one thing I I remember telling this guy, I go, one, not my choice. Two, nothing in this book or any other book will teach you how to control other people. Right. And that's not absolving myself of responsibility, but that's saying like,

If you if somebody was gonna criticize me for that or any of your listeners for that, they better take fifty percent of the bookshelves off their, you know, or the books off their bookshelf. You know, and so there's some things you're just not in control over. I think people need to lean into the things that makes their life messy, lean into what makes them weird, lean into what actually makes them gentle. I mean, j that I I always loved Eminem because Eminem had three personas. You had Eminem the artist, Marshall Mathers, who is deeply introspective and could write songs about his daughter.

And then Slim Shady that was off the wall. You know, people need to lean into the full kaleidoscope of who they are and quit trying to be liked, quit trying to be people pleasers, and quit trying to be for everybody because that ultimately doesn't get you anywhere.

Beau Beard (01:15:36.46)

Well, we asked friends of ours this question the other day. So if you were a you know, if I'm a practitioner, I'm a chiropractor and I treated people with a lot of back pain, if somebody has acute low back pain, would you rather see a practitioner that has dealt with back pain personally or somebody that hasn't? Across board everybody's like, I want somebody that's dealt with it. But you asked the question, would you want to go to a marriage counselor that has a 40 year happy marriage or somebody that's been divorced? They're always gonna say the forty year marriage I go, those are literally the opposite things, like those are opposite.

Brett (01:16:02.281)

dude. Yeah, I would say I was really

Beau Beard (01:16:04.083)

Not that you can't get good advice from somebody that's got a great marriage and like, but if you haven't stumbled and you're coming into somebody's office because you're stumbling, right? Whether that's back pain or problems in your marriage or XYZ, it's like not to say you can't do it one way or the other, but I'm like, God, that I think it's a little tougher. I I tell people all the time, I've had I think every sports injury known to man, I think that gives me a huge leg up. Cause I like I have personal experience. I've been there, I I kind of know where you're at. I like being active. I don't want to not be active. Like I try to put myself in your shoes because I probably have been.

Versus like, I don't know what that feels like, like rub some dirt on it. Come on, let's get over it. Like I just think there's a little underground, like, you know, and no there. So yeah, I I don't see the divorce as like a negative. I'd weaponize the shit out of that and be like, like, there's a lot of resolution that took place there because we still have a kid. I'm sure you guys are meaningable with that. And like, I mean, I come from a divorced family where my parents literally like, you make the decision at eight years old who live with, and I like, does that make sense?

Brett (01:16:38.2)

Yeah.

Beau Beard (01:17:02.643)

Because no looking looking back, they both were so unsure about the whole thing, they just were like, We have to leave it up to you and I think that's serviced me, but I look back and like, What the fuck were you doing? But

Brett (01:17:14.4)

Yeah, he yeah, that's tough. Yeah, well, I mean, and I love that you said weaponize it. That actually helped our business because we we got that. Like we have a course that we teach called Imperfect Relationships, and it's a play on the word I'm perfect. And and we had people literally that had been married 30 years, divorced three times, people that were single and dating and felt like I'm never gonna find anybody because I'm like my job's so busy. and yeah, too. I mean, I love that you talked about the by the way, you show me a couple that's been together 40 years.

And has never argued, I'll show you a couple that's full of shit or cheating on each other. like you know what I mean? like in that, but that goes again to this weird cultural thing of we think conflict is bad. Conflict is an essential nutrient. Conflict is an essential nutrient because all conflict is, is a perception that there's an incompatibility in our values or alignment or interests. We need conflict because it's a catalyst. That's like, again, do we do we adapt without stress?

Beau Beard (01:17:48.256)

Yeah.

Beau Beard (01:18:12.843)

Mm-hmm.

Brett (01:18:13.026)

You know, go to Hansel. Do we like so that we have a lot of societal things that we've got to work on? And that's another argument the book makes is conflict is essential. It is essential. And if we start getting to the point where we don't all you're gonna have is avoidant, passive, aggressive, dismissive little, I can't say the word I wanna say. And and the there's nothing more toxic than the avoidance of conflict. And and that is the one question that you didn't ask that I wish you did, but there's no way you would have.

This is me just jabbing you and having fun. Is I love answering the question when somebody's like, Well, you teach this stuff for a living, what's your greatest weakness and where do you still suck? So if any of your

Beau Beard (01:18:54.485)

Well, the qu my last question was, are do you consider yourself a leader? Are you a good one? So maybe not the exact question, but basically, you know, do you have a trip or you think you're sitting on Mount Olympus? Yeah.

Brett (01:19:04.772)

my God, no. I mean, Jesus. Anybody that follows me and my work at all knows that I have just the right amount of self-hate. Like, literally. And I swear, if there's like a young, sane, I shouldn't say young Jesus, if there's a if there's a young, sane female out there, this is one thing I always talked about. Like, you never would have to worry about this with me. And even my ex-wife would tell you this is true. It's impossible for me to have an ego because when you write books.

You are told constantly about how much you suck by people that you've never led pipe 420, you know, wants to tell you that your book didn't have enough photos. I just spent five years with my editor telling me everything sucked. That's their job to tell you everything that sucks. When you have a podcast, we have 435 episodes. You're you get when you put things out into the public in the internet, you are inherently inviting so much hate. And

So like I could I I find the people with the biggest egos are usually the ones with the fewest outputs, you know, because they they don't have skin in the game. They haven't been criticiz it's easy for a critic. I mean, think of critics. Their job is literally to critique, not to put things out. And so that was one of my favorite petty things that I would say to somebody if somebody were like, it's okay for somebody not to like my book. My book isn't for everybody. You wrote a shitty book if everybody likes it. But if somebody writes something like in a review that's clearly like, this is personal.

You know what mean? Like the I I I loved being like, hey, thanks for that feedback. You know, I'd love to know if anything you've written, like, could you show me any of that? I'd love to learn from you. And I'd purposefully, I knew what I was doing, but like it's also honest, like if you're gonna critique me, you better have shit out there or you better put yourself out there. You better make sure it's at least as good as or better.

because I I I've had to really work on celebrating myself more. There's this line, I'm a big hip-hop fan, and Jay-Z has his song, Monster with Nicki Minaj. And he goes, Everybody wants to know what my Achilles heel is. Love. I don't get enough of it. All I see is you vampires and bloodsuckers. And I'm like, that's I actually need more of that because I'm so self-critical. So no, I could never think that.

Brett (01:21:22.721)

I every day I feel like I feel as a father. Every day I feel like I feel as a business owner. I was always thinking about how to be a romantic partner. I'm the guy that would plan date nights like three months in advance. You know, like, so no, I definitely don't think I have it all figured out. And that's the beauty of it. And that's why I wrote the anti-hero advantage is welcome to the shit show.

Beau Beard (01:21:45.162)

I can see why you're such a Pressfield fan. you know, putting the work out there and, you know, having skin in the game. And, you know, that's kind of the thing, even if it's not, you know, a completely polished, finished piece of work, just constantly putting it out there, not just for the purpose of doing it, which would be my takeaway from Stephen Pressfield's books of like that's just your job, right? Whatever that thing is. but yeah, we live in a day and age where like I think some people are whether it's imposter syndrome because of the

Day and age we live in, or they just hide behind, like, well, God, there's so many voices out there now. If I put something out, whether it's on the on the internet or social media or an actual piece of art or an advertisement for my chiropractic practice, like, people are gonna just destroy me. It's like like that's like well, my daughter, my daughter this morning, my I have a six year old and a three year old. The three year old is a little bit of a terror on the six year old that's a planner and very organizationally minded. And she goes, she comes up to me and goes, Dad.

Brett (01:22:28.59)

What are they gonna do?

Beau Beard (01:22:41.077)

Kit said my necklace is ugly. And I go, Do you care? And she goes, But not really. I go, Okay. But that's like I need more of that. Like I so we all need to take our own advice in these phases. And like, you know, I'm with you. Like my wife sometimes she is great at hey, you need to stop and look how good you have it. You're just gonna keep driving and you know, kind of picking scabs that maybe don't really exist. And and I'm yeah, I'm that person that's like, it it is, yeah. Okay, I've done some good stuff. Like

But I'm always like well if I stop and do that, like w what, I'm just supposed to stop? Like

Brett (01:23:16.108)

No, well no, that's a good point. And Sloane's right about this is like because you can feel like you're never successful because you're constantly moving the bar. You know, and so I I think fundamentally I don't think it's about stopping so much as it's like knowing what's enough. I remember that was a good question that I got at once somebody criticized my business one time. They're like, Well, you don't have a real business because you couldn't sell it. I'm like, What makes you think I want to sell my business? I like doing what I do, you know, like at

Beau Beard (01:23:24.223)

Right. You're just supposed to keep going. Yeah.

Beau Beard (01:23:39.679)

Yeah, yeah. That's a whoo. That's a such a big point.

Brett (01:23:42.765)

And it's like, you have to have this fucking 10X, yeah, you have to have a 10X business. You know, and I'm like, no, I don't. Like, I know what is enough. You know? And he's like, Can you put a number to it? I'm like, sure, five fifteen million. And he's like, So you wouldn't want to do this? And I'm like, no. You know, like, and I also the way I run my business now, I don't wake up at five AM. I don't keep working until I did for this book. This book nearly tore me in two. It's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, especially working with

Beau Beard (01:23:53.236)

Mm-hmm.

Brett (01:24:07.892)

A publisher like Portfolio Penguin Random House, where they give you nowhere to hide and you have to. I mean, it was the most assiduous breakdown of rewrites I've ever had. It's it was awful. And but like you have to know what is enough. And so I don't think the answer is like, well, do I just stop and get stagnant? It's like knowing when I could pivot. I think a better example of that would be, you know, I used to just help people with conflict resolution and communication strategy. And then I'm like, well, but what it what's the intersection of where my work sits at? I'm

Relationships for sure. Cause if I didn't do what I did now, I would either want to be a sex therapist, a radio host, or an FBI criminal profiler. Right. So I'm like, relation, yeah. Relationships, entrepreneurship, because people will come to us and be like, how do I make my business clear? How do I stand out? How do I improve the messaging of our offers and our business? So I help with that. And then leadership, you know, and self development of like, how do I get better communicating so I can show up better for my

Beau Beard (01:24:46.963)

Or all three. I mean shoot for the moon. Yeah.

Brett (01:25:06.838)

spouse or my colleagues or my coworkers or my patients or my clients or whatever. And so I think sometimes you might just find a different area to like shift into. And now you're not stopping. You're just Ansoff's matrix new market development.

Beau Beard (01:25:20.031)

Yeah. Well, now you have me fully terrified. I maybe I was hiding behind my own self-interest when I self-published my first book. and now with the second one kind of in the the sites like going after a publisher. Now I'm like, is that what I want to do? But no. This one, so for a long time, like if you look over, I'm looking at my bookshelf here. I have all these books on like animal biomechanics and all. I just think there's so much bullshit. I mean, it just peru if you're if you see my feed on social media, it is.

Brett (01:25:32.557)

What's it about?

Beau Beard (01:25:48.999)

A thousand different opinions on how the human body works when we've

Brett (01:25:52.142)

Well then I gotta pick it up. I gotta pick I gotta look up your social media now while we're doing this.

Beau Beard (01:25:56.384)

Well, and it's just everybody, I mean, you look, it's like, how can the physiology of the human body be this different for every different person talking about it? And I'm like, okay, the only way that we can kind of blind, you know, the the interpersonal aspect if we could is look at other physiologic things, right? Obviously, we do mouse studies, mice studies, animal studies, which yeah, there's an ethical boundary there. But I was like, you know what?

Not to say the whole, you know, people want to say, look, a lion gets up and after sleeping for 22 hours and sprints and doesn't blow an Achilles tendon. No, no, that's what I'm saying. Why are humans the way they are in terms of pain and dysfunction? And how true are the things we're being told that need to be done to like basically remedy those things? And the only way you're going to do that is to look into the reflecting pool of like other biological things. So my first book was called The Age of Movement.

and now I'm kind of like the nature of movement. I don't know what the title will be, something like that. But I'm like, there is a different way to look at this where we're not I mean, everybody's just questioning questioning everything. I mean, even like we're talking physicians are like, I don't know if like what I was told in school is true and we should be working with fascia. It's like I mean, it's just a wild west. And I'm like, Isn't this science based? Like, shouldn't we I don't know.

Brett (01:27:05.678)

Yeah. Well, and I feel like I mean, I I remember like if you were to assess me, like you could, you could do as many ankle glides, soft tissue, you could, you could move me and do soft tissue work to the end and back. You're gonna be lucky if I get to neutral on ankle dorsiflexion, right? That's just kind of my bony articulations. And it's led to me, I can teach the shit out of a pop float skip, I can bound, I can do this. But I I just remember I was working for an organization at one time that.

Beau Beard (01:27:29.171)

Yeah.

Brett (01:27:32.482)

They they were in this position that like every of course we have one guy on sk staff who can just like put his feet together and sit and do a squat, you know. And he's like, You can't do that. I'm like, Yeah, well, you can't fucking deadlift or do what I, you know, we're not built the same, buddy. And he's like, No, no, everybody should be able to do that. And I feel like, I mean, I've been around long enough now that I've seen all this bullshit come in both strength and conditioning and physical therapy. You know, it was like if it's in strength and conditioning, if it wasn't the single leg or double leg of debate or powerlifting versus weightlifting as if you can't do both.

I'm actually speaking on this at the keynote of the NSCA. It's the physio world acting like, no, if you do this and if you floss and if you mob and if you it's like, no, man, like just appreciate that there are many different movement profiles, many different movement thumbprints. And like you're at I I remember I was even involved in the early days of Huruska. Like when I first it was like 2005. And I've you could look at a picture of me when I was like three and I was fucking lordotic.

Beau Beard (01:28:14.933)

Mm-hmm.

Beau Beard (01:28:20.691)

yeah.

Brett (01:28:27.242)

And they're trying to get me to like squat with a tucked pelvis. And I'm like, God, hurts my back went out. And they're like loaded this way. I'm like, Yeah. And then I'm sitting there as the guy leaves the room and he's like, just no, no, blow in that balloon, shift your hip, march, do this for 15 minutes. I'm like, there's no fucking way I'm doing this right. And this is stupid. And like, but I mean, not to say everything's got value to a degree, you know, whatever, but like I've seen it. Yeah, it's crazy.

Beau Beard (01:28:33.461)

Yeah.

Beau Beard (01:28:50.187)

But my thing, my thing is if we're working with the, like you said, the most complex organism that's been, you know, known to man is man. If every method works a little bit, but every method is bullshit, it comes down to the organism, not the method. And that's what we're like, we're missing the picture of like we you get taught basic science, and it's like we literally rip the basic science out of our head and we're like, yeah, but

Ron Hariska said this, or Andrew Spina this, or Bo Beard said this. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, no, no, no, no, no. Constantly question with not that we had the first principles, but and this isn't a diatribe on my book, but I just think there's this gets into even how work things are communicated to us on something that we all own. We all own our human body, yet we farm out this knowledge, whether it's, you know, you're a patient, you're a practitioner, or you're an athlete, and it's like,

Dude, can we have a basic understanding that then allows us to kind of up our game when we go into a physician, you know, you know, meeting, when we go in to meet with a new coach, when I'm entering a new sport as a kid. And I d that's been the imp this that was the the goal for the first book, which is kind of, you know, a primer, but yeah, that's the next book. So we'll see.

Brett (01:29:59.129)

Well, people, if you if you if you ever want to talk about that, I love talking about it. We do something called writer's workshop where anybody that wants to talk about or anybody that's thinking about whether it's their second book, third book, and they want to know about publishing, self publishing, I can geek out on that. So offline we can talk about that. And if anybody in your audience, you know, wants information on that stuff, we're happy to prove it because I've I've done it both ways now and both of them have, as you can imagine, their advantages. I think yeah it comes down to what your goal is and and what level of sanity you're willing to sacrifice.

Beau Beard (01:30:13.261)

for sure.

Beau Beard (01:30:28.203)

Yeah.

Brett (01:30:30.242)

Well, for me, like pivoting into a broader market, you know, was a big driving factor too of like wanting to make sure like that's one nice thing about working with a larger publisher is conscious coaching by the grace of God, a lot of word of mouth, a lot of this, a lot of that. But like there was nobody else marketing it but me and our supporters. you know, being able to have the distribution of a large publisher can be great. But man, you have to commit. I mean, it's a two year full on it's like a job, you know, aspects of it.

Beau Beard (01:30:33.161)

Yeah.

Beau Beard (01:30:57.887)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, we'll check in with you. well to be respectful of your time, I I love asking I have a third question for you be from something you brought back. So we'll do the tie in comedically here. But the two questions I ask everybody. So the first one being, what is something that you held to be true that you've completely changed your mind on?

Brett (01:30:59.406)

We'll see if I'm still standing in a year.

Beau Beard (01:31:18.067)

And I mean maybe hopefully it's fairly recently, whether that's in your domain, it's personally, I don't care what it is. But with some of you like, Yeah, I used to teach this, I used to believe this, and I have completely shifted my perspective on this thing.

Brett (01:31:29.25)

basic answer. So the I mean, I I actively try to tear myself apart at all points. So like what is something that I I believe I used to believe is true. I, you know, I've always had like strong beliefs loosely held. So I I you're gonna have to give me a minute if you want like an an honest answer on that.

Beau Beard (01:31:42.976)

Mm-hmm. Well, here I'll give you I'll give you the other side too. Maybe it'll help you. So then what is something that you know to be true? And again, you're in, you know, the world of evidence, but there's no evidence to support that quite yet. You're like, Yeah, I know this is the way it is, whether it's how people communicate, it's something, whatever it is. You're like, Yep, but I could not find a research article that could substantiate that today.

Brett (01:32:04.47)

Yeah, well, I used to think that was, you know, people would be surprised at how good and healthy conflict can be from that for them, but there's plenty of evidence to show that that's true. so something that I know to be true, but there probably isn't evidence for it. I would say this. I always feel like, let's go physiology. I always feel like when you it's so funny, you look at all the research where they're trying to debunk or do this for cold tubs and this and that. I feel like hot tubs don't get their don't get their flowers.

Beau Beard (01:32:29.877)

Woo. Yeah, man.

Brett (01:32:31.276)

There is like to me, there is nothing that makes me feel better in every facet whatsoever than the hot tub. Like and just I mean, I'm fascially wound tight, you know, so the combination of the heat, the hydrostatic pressure and all, but I feel like almost all the peer reviewed research acts like it's fucking basic, except if you look at like the correlation with people in Japan that use hot bass and what it can do for blood pressure and cardiovascular benefit, because your heart rate can get to zone two.

If you're sitting in a hot tub at about a hundred and four degrees, but like you will you could tell me tomorrow that hot tubs actually decrease performance and I would tell you to eat shit and die because if I have a choice, I wake up and even like today before I deadlifted, I sat in the hot tub. You know what I did a hundred per

Beau Beard (01:33:13.119)

Same. Well, here this is Brett's paid promotion for my podcast. So I have a YouTube video where I compared sauna to hot tub based on evidence about that. Yeah. So it's I'll put a link in this for people listening. So time. So if you're in a hot tub, the only thing that ma you because a hot tub, I w I do mine every morning, cold shower, but it's like a hundred and four degrees, right? So then the sauna, depending on temperature, a hundred and seventy to two twenty if you're a nut job. It was just time. So we know that people are in the sauna too long and people aren't in the hot tub long enough. So the the

Brett (01:33:20.011)

No.

Hot tub all day. Hot tub all day.

Beau Beard (01:33:42.54)

Crossover was 10 minutes in about 190 degree dry sauna was equivalent to 30 degrees and 104 degree hot tub. Same benefits, crossboard. The interesting thing was, and this is where I started looking into it, like you said, hydrostatic pressure, right? Fluid. So if we have water moving, just like in a cold tub, like a plunge, the current makes it perceivably colder. It's not colder, it's just perceived. So then like the jets being on. So I just like went toe-to-toe and I was like, because we looked at this because I wanted a sauna and a hot tub, and my wife's like, make a choice.

I like, well, the kids won't use the sauna and then we can, you know, getting that get them in there at some age, but then I look at it and I'm like, you I'm like, I feel way better. Like a sauna feels like torture. A sauna feels like like a nice recovery thing. So yeah, that was my d ultimate choice.

Brett (01:34:24.534)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I I think it's just it's crazy to me how much like love, saunas and all this stuff get in the hot tubs chilling there like, yo, what about me? You know what I mean? The the hot tub's just

Beau Beard (01:34:34.505)

And people shit on for the chemicals and stuff. It's like buy better chemical like you can buy stuff that's not gonna kill ya. So like, yeah.

Brett (01:34:38.156)

my God. Right. And in the meantime, they live in LA and they're breathing in, you know, whatever else. Mo most of the people that get all up in arms about that have all the charm of a clogged toilet. You know, and they just get like, it's like, my God, this one guy who like it looked like like any and this if people don't understand my humor, like they're this isn't gonna go over well. But I remember I was pulling up I have a friend from college and we're

We have an irreverent sense of humor together. And I texted him while we were talking about this because I was like, hey, what's something you've known me forever? What's something you feel like I've known to be true? I want to give a good answer. And he's like, Well, do you remember that one guy? you know, it it looked like like if cocaine had a face, it was that guy. And remember this one time this guy told us this and he was trying to type this out. And so I'm like, I can't say that on the air, but I'm like, it's too funny to say that.

I I think that like all right, one thing that I used to be true, like I I went through that phase too where I quit like jogging for a while because I didn't want it to decrease power output and all that, especially as I get into my 40s. I'm very conscious about this stuff. and I would say, especially being a single dad and somebody that can no longer my life doesn't really allow me easily to like lift four days a week. So I'm already very nervous about losing lean mass, going, I see what it did to my father. Like my father.

Beau Beard (01:35:55.627)

Mm-hmm.

Brett (01:36:01.615)

Granted, drastically different lifestyles, but it used to be a brick shit house and now he's it's so bad to see the sarcopenia and everything else. And but then I I think my central nervous system was so revved up when writing this book and dealing with this construction project and whatever. I re-found the joy and the value of just going for a pointless jog every now and then and letting go of the fear of, you know, it's gonna you know, crush my explosiveness and what.

So there are things that, and I would say you I know that not to be true because there's not enough of an idea. But you know what I mean. It's still something that like you start getting ardent in. I used to also believe like anybody, I think I used to do way too much high intensity cardio and I've I've rediscovered the value probably seven years ago just going on a lot of walks, you know, and so those are boring things. Everything else is probably inappropriate for this podcast. But if you want to do an after hours version, I'm happy to.

Beau Beard (01:36:36.595)

A hundred percent.

Beau Beard (01:36:58.387)

Yeah, we'll we'll do yeah, we'll do the Patreon version. no, I liked which multiple people said it at the Parker Seminars in Miami two weekends ago, but they kept saying, you know, the sarcopenia loss after the age of forty, one percent per year, but then the power loss per year is two to four percent. So that term power penia I really liked of like you don't want to lose power. So they were like

Brett (01:37:13.973)

it's brutal.

Brett (01:37:18.402)

That was my stripper name.

Beau Beard (01:37:21.989)

We'll get more into that. but I I really like that. I was like, that's I like that because it removes the meat headedness of it. Like, I'm just gonna put on a bicep and like, look, I'm I'm gonna live to a hundred like no, can you actually still use the muscle that you have to have force production? I mean, that's power. And it's like, cool, I like that. Like I can I can wrap my head around that where I'm not just like, yeah, go bodybuild, you live forever. No, that's not how it works.

Brett (01:37:45.295)

Yeah. And I think too, like you let go, and this is not how I would treat, you know, athletes and what have you. But like for myself, I used to be very, very strict on my own periodization, always following a program or whatever. Now I'm so mindful, just to I mean, having done it for so long, of I always squat, I always hinge, push, pull, blah, blah, blah. You know what mean? But like if today I literally had 20 minutes and the constraints in my garage made it so that I had to superset a deadlift with a bicep curve.

Beau Beard (01:38:01.995)

Mm-hmm.

Brett (01:38:13.08)

Cause I couldn't superset it with a one arm dumbbell bench press, or or maybe I just didn't fucking feel like it because I've trained literally since I'm 12 years old. You know, I just like the some of the stuff that we think is important isn't all that important when it comes to just, man, just get in there, lift, lift weights at different speeds, at different intensities and different planes of motion, at different ranges of motion and different volumes, different times of year. And by and large, for you yourself, not somebody getting ready for a quadrennial cycle in the Olympics, you're going to be fine. Cause I think it's like

Less than one percent of the population even like lifts and reads a book regularly, you know. So like it's pretty sad. And so it's just like

Beau Beard (01:38:50.867)

You yeah, if you lift weights, read books and run, you are a fucking unicorn. So I that's why I tell my wife all the time, like, dude, you don't even know what you got here. Like it's

Brett (01:39:00.502)

What if you live what if you lift, read books, make love and can cook a great meal?

Beau Beard (01:39:05.855)

Well, I'm still like she's still got a great one. I don't know. So I don't know. I don't know. But I'm not sitting there doing grip strength protocols like you are on a podcast. So I gotta up my game. So

Brett (01:39:07.95)

you're the perfect guy. You are Ryan Gosling. Yeah.

Look at I sublux this this shoulder. I was doing a Turkish getup like 10 years ago and a little shit soccer player that was like exos athletes performance used to have like you soccer kids coming in at like 5 p.m. So here I am in the corner of the facility doing Turkish get ups or what have you. Some little asshole kid runs into me from behind and my shoulder goes when I have a 36 pound or 36 kilo bell in it.

Beau Beard (01:39:27.723)

Mm-hmm.

Brett (01:39:40.962)

So ever since then this arm, even though I got, you know, a a labrum repair is so loosey goosey and my grip's garbage. So, you know, we gotta do a little squeezy poo every now and then.

Beau Beard (01:39:49.375)

Love it. I love it, man. all right, last question. This wasn't planned. Which

Brett (01:39:53.602)

Last question. Golly, there's five thousand questions. There's the last question of make it juicy.

Beau Beard (01:39:57.012)

Well, well, this is just based on what you said earlier. So what's your favorite Christopher Nolan movie? I mean, you brought this up and I I've literally all right. I there's a poster in my other office of Interstellar by far.

Brett (01:40:05.623)

Interstellar.

Brett (01:40:10.004)

Intercellar or the Dark Knight. I mean, I probably have Interstellar, if you want to like, I love that line where he's like, you know, there used to be a time that we looked up and wondered about our place in the sky, and now we're just laying with our face in the dirt, you know, or some version of that. But if if you were like telling me the one I had to watch in purgatory and perpetuity, it's gonna be the dark night because fundamentally it's it's the message we've been talking about. That is a movie about game theory. Like Batman represents this absolute.

Beau Beard (01:40:18.954)

Mm-hmm.

Brett (01:40:37.31)

Ideal one way, I will not kill this is what I have to do. The Joker is representative of chaos and the complexity of that chaos, and vice versa, to show that you can't operate effectively with that kind of black and white mentality. And I think fundamentally that is something people have to understand about life and the symbolism in the dark night. It is not a superhero movie. It is about what do you need to become.

in the face of chaos. And that to me is what the antihero advantage was about. If you want to make a difference, you have to lean into the gray and you fundamentally have to become an uncommon animal.

Beau Beard (01:41:08.139)

Mm-hmm.

Beau Beard (01:41:13.477)

Mm-hmm. Well, now I know why you're such a good communicator, 'cause then you can tie everything back into whatever you're selling. So that was that was a fantastic segue. No. yeah.

Brett (01:41:22.39)

I remembered your wife's name too. You want me to go for your kid's name or anything? Come on. You know, like I'm not just a salesman here.

Beau Beard (01:41:27.059)

I just made my wife I just made my wife cry with a little Instagram reel with the the quote in there where you're the or once you are a parent you're the ghost of your children's future or something like that. And she's she's in the other room like watching the reel and she's like and I was like, Yeah.

Brett (01:41:37.881)

that's the worst.

Brett (01:41:43.31)

Why'd you so I'd hit you if you said that? That is the w now I'm gonna cry. I promise I wouldn't cry.

Beau Beard (01:41:45.74)

It's it's fantastic. And it was with I do photography and it was a picture of our daughter. So she was just sobbing. I was like, You're welcome. yeah, I love that movie. I've watched Interstellar more than any other movie by far. By far. Yeah. There's only one song in there that I get a little like it makes me very like e cra I don't know. it's the time one, the the clock. I can't do that one and like sit there and do work. Yeah.

Brett (01:41:55.224)

Kali.

Brett (01:41:59.426)

I wrote to the soundtrack. That's the that's the soundtrack I wrote a lot of my book to.

Brett (01:42:11.842)

That is what that that one is I when they asked for a rewrite of the book, and I was like impossible. I can't do it. I it was during a time where I nearly lost my dad. The walls were literally closing in, there was no time, and I hadn't like exercised the way I wanted to in probably two weeks. So I was about to lose my mind. And you can't like stand up and write a book. So fuck anybody that's like, you should get a stand up desk. you know, like you're gonna write a like fucking the love and peace or war in peace with a stand up desk.

But I remember that's a song I put on because it was just like that. And then I wrote my way out like from Hamilton. I'm sitting here like I gotta do it or I'm gonna die and fail.

Beau Beard (01:42:52.319)

Yeah, my every once in a while when I was writing my book, because I do it like four AM. I'd write for two hours every morning and just do that. And I did that for seven months. And every once in a while my wife would come in and like I'd take my headphones off or she'd pull them out. And it was like the craziest interstellar, some weird, deep focus thing. And she goes, This is you're just weird. And I was like, This is like my brain just ooh, but that's yeah. I can't listen to regular music and write. Yeah, I I get it.

Brett (01:42:52.891)

my god.

Brett (01:43:14.552)

You you are weird, but that's why we get along, Bo. That's why we get along.

Beau Beard (01:43:19.167)

Man, I again I literally could ask you questions on specific things we have talked about for hours, but I I want to keep it yeah, part two or I am gonna come out, I wanna see your place. I'm gonna be in Arizona in November, so I wanna come see your place, I wanna come take course. maybe we can do a live version of this, which be better for a variety of reasons. Yeah. any last words of wisdom?

Brett (01:43:25.186)

I can do a part two.

Brett (01:43:37.932)

Get out of here. Do it. I wish you would have aired I wish you would have aired what you said before we started recording. Guys, he was so excited to ask questions. He goes, Brett, I feel like a mosquito at a nudist camp. I don't know where to begin. But let's just start

Beau Beard (01:43:51.988)

100%. And it's it's fully fledged. I have not gorged myself in enough blood. And that in its you know, itself is a bad thing to end with. So any good words of wisdom or any other I mean, we'll put all the contact info for everything that you're doing, links to the new book, go pre-order the new book. yeah, anything you want to end on here that we haven't touched on yet?

Brett (01:44:01.871)

Engorged blood.

Brett (01:44:14.612)

Any words of wisdom. I think you talked about a post that got a good reaction of yours. I once put up a post that I think is a good reminder. People are impatient, people are lazy, people are often non-discerning, people are often entitled, people are often not self-aware, people are often extraordinarily poor communicators, but love them anyway. That's what I'll leave with.

Beau Beard (01:44:36.779)

Damn. And I still feel personally attacked, but I will leave it at that.

Brett (01:44:41.44)

Why? That had nothing to do with you. All right. I appreciate you. Everybody get your asses to the antiheroadvantage.com. I will be with with the first 2,000 pre-orders, you will get a a little sampling of my cologne and a handwritten note, you know, with a like you won't see the kiss, but it'll have been imbued upon the envelope. No, but in all seriousness, seriousness, thank you for having me on. Thank you for allowing me to tell people about my book.

Beau Beard (01:44:45.109)

Hey man. thank you so much.

Beau Beard (01:44:50.537)

Yes.

Beau Beard (01:45:07.747)

absolutely.

Brett (01:45:09.962)

I do promise this, folks. If you read the book, honestly with open heart, open mind, and and you hate it, you can invoice me from your for your time. But this book is fundamentally, if I did nothing else in my life, this book is that it's not perfect, but I promise it will help you. it will help others. And I just so appreciate the support of everybody listening and you bo.

Beau Beard (01:45:29.845)

Thanks again. And I'll end with this. So anybody that follows me, you know that I do a bunch of book reviews. So I'll be when this officially comes out, I'll do a review my style. And I'm a giant nerd. So I have this giant Excel file with all the quotes and highlights from every book I've read for the past decade. So this one will be added to that list. So yeah, look forward to that. And thanks again, Brett. Really appreciate it, man.

Brett (01:45:50.498)

Bye buddy.