The Power of Doing What Matters | Dr. Clayton Skaggs
Clayton Skaggs, a pioneer in functional rehabilitation, shares his journey from traditional muscle-based models to understanding the intricate neuroimmune systems that govern healing. You’ll discover how a small shift—reducing complexity, focusing on what truly matters—can unlock rapid, lasting results. Skaggs highlights stories of muscle gains without dieting, muscle imbalances fixed by simple exercises, and the power of holding loosely to control—lessening resistance and amplifying recovery.
Full Transcript
Yeah, amazing facility and kudos to you. when did CIHP open? A fit like how long ago?
Clayton (00:55.74)
Yeah, well s really begins to date me. It two thousand three was the official opening there at the institute and you know, I had some practice of a similar similar approach for ten years before that, but two thousand three was the beginning of the Saint Louis Institute and it's been a been a great ride for sure. Yeah.
Beau Beard (01:21.518)
Yeah.
Beau Beard (01:25.068)
And for those of you that might be listening that have never been to are you technically in are you in Webster Grove or where exactly?
Clayton (01:27.834)
No.
Clayton (01:33.763)
it's it's Kirkwood. Kirkwood, Missouri, the the small community there, yeah.
Beau Beard (01:35.224)
Kirkwood, not.
Yeah, but amazing facility. a gym with the clinic flanking it, or at least when I was there, I mean it's been a long time since I was there. it was just amazing. the locker room with all the players was cool to go into. But yeah, speaking about, you know, a decade of clinical experience before you opened this, you know, kind of marquee center, how did you get into the world of, you know
Clayton (01:46.738)
Mm-hmm.
Beau Beard (02:03.49)
the Levinson, the, you know, the Levitz, the Yondas, like how did that appro or how did that present itself to you? Because in my eyes, you're one of the, you know, the OG kind of American, you know, like bring alongs of this functional rehab approach. But to be honest with you, just because, you know, I don't think you've been in, you know, the social media light, you're not teaching a whole lot. I think a lot of kids that are getting out of school nowadays, they might be like, you know, Dr. Skaggs and I r I think it's important like
Clayton (02:09.481)
Yeah.
Beau Beard (02:31.96)
When we had Tim Brown on, a lot of my interns are like, Who? And I was like, Yeah, that's why we're having these people on because they need to know and I just think that, you know, it's good to hear where you came from and, you know, where you are now. So can you just give us a brief kind of background on how you got into this world, you know, years ago?
Clayton (02:50.14)
Sure, and I appreciate your your comments. and it's it's just my favorite stories of how I stumbled upon a lot of these great, great teachers and really was fortunate to just bump into so many of them and as I was telling Brett Winchester in a conversation we had recently, I I was fortunate not just to bump into these guys but
actually become friends with them and and that yeah I'm not sure how that that all came to came to pass, but just really fortunate with the folks that I've I've ran into and that that's what is is really the the the product and and the outcome of our current work is is all these folks. And so I I was I guess five, you know maybe even less three
Three or four years into practice, and this is back in the in the nineties, again dating myself quite a bit. and you know, at that time there was no rehabilitative course in our curriculums and no no physic I mean physical therapy was was real basic, nutrition was really basic, and so in my practice I was challenged and just not not very inspired. And
knew there was more. I I had I had begun to search. I was spending a lot of time with dentists at the time and learning about how they're approaching things, which was actually a lot more holistic than chiropractors back then. And and within that that time period when I was searching, this brochure comes across my desk about a neurologist teaching a course on muscle imbalance in Peoria, Illinois.
Beau Beard (04:46.222)
That's where from. Yeah. Canton. I I say Peoria 'cause nobody would know Canton, Illinois, but yeah.
Clayton (04:46.488)
And come on. Wow. Okay.
so it it I was like this neurologist from Prague is coming to teach a course in Peoria, Illinois. and again blessed that you know God moved me to to to go and I said I'm gonna go to that. And when I did there was Vlad Yanda teaching a course on muscle imbalance and it you know when he gave the the lecture I knew at that moment
that was the gap fill. That you know, he just filled the the science and understanding about all the things that I knew at that point, which was not much. And and there with him was Craig Levinson, Jerry Hyman, who had brought him there. The Craig had already been working with the Prague School a bit with Carol Levitt and and and so from that point
I I followed the the functional rehabilitation program, start taking the courses and then became a teacher in the courses and then went on to you know go to Prague, become really good colleague and friends with Levitt and Yonda and and through that bumped into all these other other folks like Stu McGill and and obviously spent time with
Beau Beard (06:16.782)
Clayton (06:20.623)
the whole rehabilitation faculty that that Craig Liebinson began. So just again, fortunate, geez. and and so that that's part of my purpose is and and along this this journey is to is to try to hand hand some of that off. I I have taken some pause in teaching in in the last decade or so for for certain reasons.
and now at at this you know I guess fourth quarter, I am looking at ways to to pass pass some things forward and and I I guess probably as I say in my book, it's it's for my daughter, her kids and their kids because what we do is just too hard to get to currently. It it's just it's too hard. And
Beau Beard (07:09.422)
Mm-hmm.
Clayton (07:19.289)
And so I hope that with some of the things we're doing now and and we'll be doing the next next few years that that we can help make that easier. so
Beau Beard (07:33.494)
And I want to dive into that more, but kind of tugging on the thread of, you know, Yonda and Levit and your clinic, correct me if I'm wrong, is called the Levit Clinic. so what I'm just curious. When, you know, again, I try to unravel because I was part of rehab to performance, which Craig helped start and then hand it off to us, and it's like
We kind of saw the lineage because I think we're in kind of a middle point, right? I worked at Brett's office right as, you know, Dr. Dr. Winchester is it like DNS was solidifying, you know, as like a a thing that was now being taught and marketed more widely. But again, for students now, which is a big part of our, you know, listening base, trying to peel back the layers of like what was going on at a place like Charles University where these, you know, are are
Was it just happen chance that these savants like Yonda and Levitt and all these other clinicians happened to be there? Or was there some sort of scenario or the teaching system? Like any insight into that of like how all of these people just kind of matriculated out of the same time and place?
Clayton (08:37.273)
Yeah, I mean th that that's a good question. And you know, I think you know, I I allude to this in some some different communications that I think in the Czech they were well first I think they're just some really brilliant folks that that just happen to be the could join there and and and it's it's not just Levitt Yanda but you know
There's a number of other neurologists within that faculty and and and the therapists there are are remarkable, not and then you can't leave out Dr. Collage, you know, Pavel. but that that certainly was a a generation of of development. And but back to why it happened there, I think they were limited by their means for a longer time than than the Western world and and
you know, here here in the States for sure. And and so they they continue to really work at observing, listening, and and touching patients. So so they their you know their high tech was slower getting there. And so I think those important patient interactions you know were maintained and and they they they mastered them.
So I I think that that that's my hypothesis as to why that that maybe really spawned there. Certainly Germany and you know some of the Voyta work had had influence or some Russian influences in there too. and you know it when when one of the first trips we made over there and was you know just eye opening how much time they spent
with their their their patients and and you know we we got to see physical therapists working with one one patient there'd be two or three with them on the on the floor. one of my favorite stories is Scott Chapman, a a a great practitioner up in Boston, very academic fella at the time, s and was the you know a board certified
Clayton (11:03.897)
orthopedic and and so very academic and I'll never forget him coming off the floor after getting some reflex therapy done by two or three physical therapists and he his eyes were what what just what just happened and so so yeah a very different approach and and I think it it's where we need to go and it and I and it's taken me
some thirty years to to get get out of the way for this myself, even amidst everything I'm I've been part of. And and I think we're we're sometimes pushed to to to do things faster, to you know not spend as as much time and and and and to do more than
than really the patient needs at that time. And so I think I think we're there's there's some signs that that there's an opportunity to get back to exactly what what those folks were doing you know, twenty, thirty, thirty years ago there.
Beau Beard (12:21.24)
When you teed me up for the next point here, which was, you know, you highlight in your book, and I think a lot of us would be aware, like, you know, Levitt was widely known for his, you know, palpation skills and Yonda for his visual assessment. but then you had a line in your book that you said it's, you know, s a lot of us are still under the illusion or you were under the illusion that what I did, you know, basically played the biggest role. And I think that's what you were kind of alluding to right there is, you know, how if we had to speed this process up.
Right. That's a lot of what teaching is hey, don't fumble over the same hurdles I did. Or if you do, let's get over it faster and learn better. If it's trying to be like, hey, we had the because it's hard for me to sometimes reconcile these world class clinicians that we look up to and we hear the story. I mean, Winchester always says, you know, Levitt putting the needle on somebody's soleus to cure their headaches after an hour, you know, assessment, you're like, God, that's gotta be me.
But then, you know, you kind of dwindle this down of like, well, there's all these variables of these complex systems dealing with other complex systems like a human-to-human interaction. And like, do we even understand that enough to grasp it? So what is that evolution? Because that's what I'm I think I'm hearing you saying is like, how do we go about practice when we maybe realize that like what we're doing isn't playing the biggest role? And how do we actually do that? Because that's a little bit almost like antithetical to what we're taught.
Clayton (13:41.262)
Yeah and again it it it's taken me thirty years to to sort of figure this out. I'm still figuring it out for sure. and I I think I I I certainly recognize now that I I play a small small role and and I you know I I heard Lormar Mosley say this a few years ago and and when he said it
I I was like, wow, this guy th this guy's three hundred articles and you know, I love he I just really respect how masterful he is with with his clinical approach that he describes and and and he said that. He goes, I I play I play this much of a role in in this p this patient encounter and and I feel the same. and and and it's
it is hard to to not to not not put all that confidence in your hands and and these things because we all are that that's what we're taught and and and you know you know you gain some skills in that. I mean a a good example is I had this client come from Tampa here to my my my little Fort Worth shop last week and he had this
kind of complicated knee presentation. He'd been struggling with it for four, you know, four or so months. And he came in all swollen. And within ten after after a thorough thorough assessment, I got him on the table and I did some work and and I I reduced the swelling. He's he's walking around and and and so and he wow feels more stable.
And y and the temptation is to to just run with that wow, right? And I I used to talk about the wow all the time in in the courses. You want that wow and and and that is good. That is a catalyst for them to to gain confidence and belief that they can heal. but man, what's going to to sustain that is you teaching them what's next. And and
Clayton (16:03.801)
And what's next is they're likely to bump into a signal again, right? And and and are they're they're gonna bump bump into someone who has another opinion. And so if you don't prepare them for what's next, your the chance of them sustaining that recovery is is limited. And and and so your best advocate for your practice is
is educating educating that individual.
Beau Beard (16:37.46)
Not one of the I mean we'll I'm gonna really dive into that just part of the conversation, but one of the things that you highlighted in there was just a story that kind of captivated me and the reason probably won't surprise you, but it's very granular, is you told the story of this seven-year-old woman with radiating pain in her hip. and you gave her three exercises, three exercises, nothing else. That was the kind of key, like nothing else. And we'll talk about your VHR, but changed on her VHR.
pain changes that you kind of had to almost like highlight back to her, like, you are doing better than you thought. It's common we you know, anyway in clinical practice. But the big thing to me was the gains of three pounds of muscle with no gain of fat, with no changes in diet. Again, we can dive into, you know, psychoneuroimmunologic changes or how we appro like, what's the explanation? Because if I I can think, if I handed this book, which we'll, you know, we'll highlight the book for sure. We'll put links in there for everybody.
If I gave this to a student that was interning here, that's going through all of the coursework, right? DNS and NDS, and they just got physiology jammed down their throat and all these things. And I was like, hey, this guy that is like extremely well seasoned has thought about it harder than probably, you know, most people, is like, do no more, be very basic. And you're not only seeing pain changes, you're seeing composition change. Like, I think they'd be like, What? Explain that to me. So that's what I'm gonna ask you is like, how do we suss that out?
Clayton (18:02.266)
Yeah.
Beau Beard (18:05.922)
Like what's going on there?
Clayton (18:08.855)
Yeah. and it and I talk to my team about this all the time. It takes courage. It it it really takes courage to stop and and and just do those limited things and and that's that's part of why I Levitt and and and some of these folks were were so amazing is they they would do the one thing and then they would stop. They would stop. And
And and and the the the reasoning and I you know, some of it I'm still still figuring out as I've said, but is the the nervous system and the psychoneur neuroimmunologic systems are so are are so amazing and so responsive, I mean eighty six billion neurons in the brain and you know, just
you know, trillions in the bot in the in the body. We are we're we're changing every moment, right? And and every every podcast you listen to, every every thing's spinning off, they say the same thing, how how amazing it is, and and what we're learning about interreception and and and and ev even there there's this new push on interstitium and the tissue between right and and and so they they talk about all this
this this amazing capacity but then they don't let it work they they don't let it work and you know the the the simplest explanation I give most most of our clients and patients is when you break a bone and you stabilize it just right it it grows new bone right so
I if but but if you leave that cast too loose and you allow movement, so you allow you know more than more than as good in movement, it it won't it or it'll go really slow. If you put it on too tight, same thing. So that's that's the simplistic model of a precision. And and so how does how does a seventy year old woman gain muscle and lose fat?
Clayton (20:33.187)
When she did did less and all she did was you know, these breathing exercises and some posture retraining and one leg stance. How did she because she she hit the target of what her need was. Her her proximal neuromuscular stimulus is we hit it with those things and we stopped all the things she was do she was doing orange theory. She she was limping around, she's doing orange theory.
So we took away all those detractors, hit the target, and just like a bone healing and growing bone, the neural, you know, the nervous system just hits the target. I see it, I see it all the time. and and we we're now seeing visual changes. So so and why I love this interstitium coming out because that's what we see on our our visual health representations. We see
Beau Beard (21:09.614)
Mm-hmm.
Clayton (21:33.071)
we we see visual change. So someone gets smaller and their body composition really doesn't move that much. So so what's going on? And you know my my team sometimes goes, Clayton, what's what's happening there? And I go, Well, I'm not sure, but but they're doing good. That's just to keep and but you know, I think it's you know it's it's inflammation reduction and and disresponsiveness and and
Beau Beard (21:52.043)
Ha ha.
Beau Beard (21:59.214)
Mm-hmm.
Clayton (22:01.678)
You know, y we all know what these are things so you my eight year old granddaughter the other day had a hunter two fever. Y I didn't need to ask anyone that that she didn't feel good, right? I mean y you could just you can see it. And and our grand our grandparents, our our parents, they know when things aren't good before we tell they're not good. And but we're not we're not we're not we're not assessing that.
Beau Beard (22:15.81)
Mm-hmm.
Beau Beard (22:28.482)
I think we're
Yeah. And I think we're really robbing, you know, clinicians of all practice levels, students of that intuitive, you know, it's not a it's not a back thought. Like you just have to realize when to listen to it when not, which the more experience you get, the more patterns you recognize, which ones to pay attention to. And that's kind of when intuition barks up. But like you said, no I mean, my six year old daughters asked Dad, you don't feel good today? I mean, who taught her anything? You know, I mean it's like
Clayton (22:58.151)
yeah.
Beau Beard (22:59.5)
It goes the other way too. And I think that we do, like you said, of we get so wrapped up in the evidence based and the information. And you know, I use the thermometer analogy all the time of like that data point right there gives you a lot. Is it a high, you know, short-term fever, low, you know, lower long-term low grade? And already you have a ton of information, yet we're like, I need, you know, XYZ. And it's like, maybe not. But you you kind of said so if I'm grasping this correctly.
Whether it's the inundation of everything that's going on with somebody from, you know, from energy crisis, you know, to neurologic compromise, stress. I mean, we could just say stress, I guess. But you had this quote from Felgenkrais that would it said basically it would serve you to master your ability to attain and sustain your present experience. And I just thought what a stark contrast that idea was compared to just the world we live in, right? That that's getting harder and harder and harder. Do you feel like
Us living in this world that we do, which we can't escape, is making all of our plights worse, which we know we're more unhealthy. But when we talk about musculoskeletal, obviously if somebody's more unhealthy, they could have more pain. But do you think that's getting harder for clinicians to treat because the almost like the target's becoming different, right? And that could play back to that. Like, we're what we're doing has less of effect than we maybe think. But does that make sense from a question standpoint? Like what we were treating before.
It's changed ideologically. It used to be, you know, very you know, muscle bone, now it's you know, then pain neuroscience and now, you know. But is it more like okay, we have to get in this ecologic model and this, you know, treating the organism and it's getting harder and harder, or are we still treating the same thing? We just have to understand the environment better.
Clayton (24:40.512)
I I would probably land on the ladder and and I I think it's it it it's it's always been the same. I think
mind body you know continuum has has always existed. we we've just you know as as met antibiotics and things came around we we stopped stopped paying attention and we we just started focusing on the cure versus the individual and and and and so I think if if we and it's
To your point though, the the world has gotten more complicated and you know people are
They're doing this all the time and and and and the the environmental piece is certainly a component, but that that that's all the more reason to be looking at other factors you know that that that are contributing to these signal you know expressions. And I I we in in our in our world and at the institute we we use the word signal, not pain, because
it is a signal. It's a okay. What does that mean? Pain immediately has a meaning that that people run with so and and so i is is the signal related to how they're moving or is the signal related to their inflammatory state? And and then so you should be treating the relevant the relevant factors. And but if you're not assessing the relevant factors, so if if you're just
Beau Beard (26:03.278)
Mm-hmm.
Clayton (26:26.838)
Moving and w are is that painful? then you are you're in a pretty narrow focus.
Beau Beard (26:36.078)
When we I mean, use the term, you know, which is not, you know, a new term, but psychoneuroimmunologic, is that just another word for we're treating the whole person, or are those subsystems hierarchically more important than others? Right? 'Cause we you hear the BPS and we hear these things, but like, why that? Like why highlight that versus like, we're just having this holistic approach to treating a human?
Clayton (27:01.09)
Well, I think I think a adding those words helps the practitioner and and the and the client or patient appreciate the those facets and and that th that there there are there is a continuum of of response and reaction to what they do, what they think and and what you're gonna do for them and and and so I I think it it helps
expand the the aspect of improving over over a long a a long process. And I think that's that's probably one of the most important things you can do for a client or patient is as soon as you can give them that that perspective. And and and I do this with with every client is okay
And and I do it on a board like this. Like so you're here and this is where you want to go. And and guess how long it took you to get here? And they'll all almost all of them will say, a long time, and I'll Yeah, decades. Decades. And and so for you to think you're gonna be resolved in a month is is just not reasonable.
Yeah, un unless, you know, acute an acute injury and you know something like that. But if they and even that they so they they they probably had susceptibility for for some of this thing. So the sooner you can give that perspective that this this is gonna take a while and and you're you're the you're the most important part of the process, then then you're you're really you're really gonna have some momentum built.
Beau Beard (28:38.594)
Mm-hmm.
Beau Beard (28:57.89)
To make that you say in the book again, like squeezing the glass, like understanding is the fix, right? That if you hold on too tightly, the perception drops. But you can play that analogy out across the whole, you know, treatment kind of profile. Why I mean, okay, so a hard ask here. As a profession, we're still te teaching, you know, diagnosis fix, diagnosis fix for the most part, right? We get out of school and maybe we start to try to unlearn that process or build upon it a little bit.
But how do we how do we systematically, right, within the healthcare system that we're in, start to change that to where like it's not, you know, we we just in our clinic we'll bring up the actual healing timelines. Like we look at like a tin and we're like, it never gets to full like a hundred percent. It takes two years to get where it's gonna get. And that's you know, assuming that's just a straight line and there's no blips or signal, you know, and it's like
Clayton (29:45.507)
Yeah.
Beau Beard (29:54.232)
Like how do we go about, I guess, is it just patient by patient? Or there is this, you know, bucking up against insurance because they're, you know, paying us in this structure? Is it the schools? Like, where would you go if you could wave a magic wand? You're like, I think this would be where the effort would have the biggest effect to change that paradigm.
Clayton (30:14.443)
Hmm.
Well, I you know, I I'm I'm I'm certainly not in in our approach suggesting that we don't diagnose a you know, an infection or diagnose a
a degenerative joint or an unstable joint or or or or anything. And and yet it is it it's part of it's part of the the whole of the individual. And I think that that's the that's the thing that has to change. And and I think also within that within that concept I think we have to change how we spend the time with
with the client, with the patient, and that there should be at least half of the visit, you know, teaching them. Half of the visit teaching them about w what what this means and and how how this how this is going to move forward. And being very sensitive to how much you're going to bias the recovery. I mean, so there there's I think w you know how we say things
is is more important than what what we say. And and so I th I think just just more attention around. So in no way should we you know regress and and be you know non-scientific or or or not appreciative of of what we know. But it it's how we deliver it i is the is the key and within a
Clayton (31:58.786)
Yeah, with within a framework that is helping them move forward. And I I just heard the other day I I'm forgetting who who used this phrase, but to be a catalyst for the placebo. So to to be a catalyst for the placebo. And and so and I I was talking to our team the other day about my approach as I take in the history
and and then I do our assessments and I look at their imaging and and different things. I I my collective is trying to ascertain what it is that individual needs to hear to help them move forward. What what do they need to hear and experience to help them look ahead so they can move forward. And and so that
and and and you know that that would be that would be a a primary focus and you know it's it it's it's not it it's certainly not easy and and you know Craig Leavens and I was really fortunate to be brought in with that faculty and and all those all those brilliant folks w we we used to teach
rehabilitation a c across the United States and periodically we'd you know we'd look at what what's happening after three hundred hours of this work and and you know it it it by the time they did get to the three hundred hours the it things were often gelling and I mean it it was necessary for those foundational pieces in the first hundred. I mean so
So Friedler was can we just pull out this this this simplistic stuff on the front and but no it was essential for them to to really have that cohesion at the end and I think a lot of the basics that that are currently taught within biomechanics and rehabilitation and DNS and are are essential but
Clayton (34:24.385)
What what what is missing and not emphasized enough is is the pain education, the the behavioral the behavioral understanding.
and you know, I I think we're we're we're we have we have one of the best starting points in that we we were educated on the root cause and holistic models first and foremost. So it's it's it's fascinating how a a lot of these new scientific discoveries are or things we've been doing, for for a bit, like listen to the body. really? that's that's kinda kinda interesting,
Yeah, so so I I think I think we're in a good you know, us you know, physical medicine practitioners, you know, Cairos, PTs, ATCs are you know, some of our best practitioners on our team are ATCs. They're they're really good knowledge and talent base.
Beau Beard (35:28.056)
Yeah, I love the catalyzing the placebo. That's, I mean, depending on what literature you look at, if we just put a generalized percentage, the the percentage within our realm where we don't have massive placebo effects with like we've all seen the you know double-blinded placebos with surgery, right? And like the kind of wacky outcomes there, and then we're not doing a surgery with this or a pill. We have to kind of, you know, we're all doing different stuff, so even it's hard there, but it's like we're never taught how to weaponize that.
Like that is the mass effect. If you looked at it, upwards of 80% sometimes what we're doing is like you said, the delivery, the the follow-up, how we worded it, how we said the words we chose. Yet nobody's like, Why are we teaching about that? Like it's it's like, no. And like you said, I I think personally, one of the reasons ATCs are really, really good, world-class sideline exams. So they get to, okay, here's our like
Clayton (35:57.463)
Yeah.
Clayton (36:13.408)
yeah.
Beau Beard (36:23.596)
you know, path anatomical clinical diagnosis. And then it's like, okay, then we're gonna go over and treat the person. So it's like you got your red flags, you got your thing, and okay, now we can take a breath and move on. Whereas maybe we stand, you know, out of school on shaky ground on that note. So we kind of fumble in between the two, right? Like, well am I treating, you know, this, you know, a partially ruptured ligament or am I just treating, you know, a pain mechanism. And then we're like, I don't know, I'm gonna go with, you know, soup did you or and it's whatever I just went to, but, you know,
Clayton (36:38.837)
Mm.
Clayton (36:47.959)
Yeah.
Beau Beard (36:51.594)
Yeah, it's very hard to kind of talk even in our profession talking to somebody like you, it's like I won't I have a million questions because there's so much conjecture, right? Like, what it what treatment should we be using, right? What what is the principles that we should be working from? Versus I think if we go, and I know it differs, but you go to other professions, it seems more concrete. So it's like the starting point is a little more defined, so then you can extrapolate, whereas we're like, I don't even agree with like, you know, Dr. Skag's basic philosophies. Then you're like, how can we it's
It gets hard to like grow as clinicians when every time you go to a seminar, you're like, this is wildly different. but I think out of that, which I'll also say thank you for the 300 hours because that was Leibinson's the ISCRS, the International Society of Clinical Rehab Specialists, the three hundred core hours. So that was my roadmap for the first like two years of practice of like, so thank you for making me neurotic and you know, spend a lot of money and travel around here and all that stuff. But now it makes sense.
Clayton (37:27.981)
Yeah.
Clayton (37:48.45)
Yeah.
Beau Beard (37:51.192)
But kind of skipping around here, and there's gonna be, you know, just some jumping because that's how my brain works. But you know, you in this book, again, the book that Dr. Skaggs wrote, we'll put links to this the power of doing what matters, you know, is really not a book for clinicians. This is book for everybody. and I've told a lot of patients about it, especially when conversations come up. It's just one of those books where you're like, yeah, we we talk to people about it all the time. Like, you should go read about this. But you kind of have these little blips in there of just things I thought were interesting.
Right. One was like hold on loosely and you're like juggling single leg balance and you just threw these things in. And you know, I know it might just be like, hey, these are good to work on, but like why these specifics? Like I could imagine from a neurologic perspective and all these things, but like why did you just throw these things into a middle of the book that's filled with knowledge? Like, hey, I think you should try to juggle, I think you should use your opposite hand, you should stand on one leg. Like, why? Why should
I be doing this, why should people do be doing this? Why are those so important to do in our daily lives?
Clayton (38:52.278)
Well thank you and and thank you for your your nice comments on the book and and and it is it is intended to be a book for everyone, people in pain but also those that that don't wanna have you know problems and and just to be the greatest of all time for you. And i it's written very purposefully simplistic and and and I mean I
squeezed complexity out of it as as as as much as I I could. my editors, you know, struggled with me on it. and no. I I that I want it more simple. and and so and and and the the the exercises and the and the recommendations are the same.
in and that the if you just do these simple things, which most of them are are are going to impact your parasympathetic nervous system and and keep you in a rest and digest mode or or an attentive mode towards good things. if you do those simple things consistently you'll you'll you'll improve your your response to
the changes that come your way and and so what what what is resilience? It's a response to change. You know, your your res your body's response to to change or obstacles that that that come your way. And and so versus you know trying to do all these longevity hacks of you know the and complexity of and interventions which which you
Beau Beard (40:25.346)
Yeah, right.
Clayton (40:45.284)
it it's unlikely you can continue them for a long period of time. It's certainly unlikely that the majority of our population can you know can can do an infrared sauna every day or or or all these different things. But these simple things and like reading, reading alone is is just wonderful for for your mind, body, health or or unity as as Langer says. And
Beau Beard (40:48.728)
Mm-hmm.
Clayton (41:14.252)
And and so the in the intention is if you'll do just three to five of those things, you know, and and there there's there's fifteen or twenty in the book, but if you'll do three to five that you you'll you'll continue for a long period of time, y it'll it'll affect you. You'll it'll it'll have it'll have an impact and and and that's you know, then and why did I choose those? Because
over the past twenty years I've been giving those out and and it it's changing people's lives. I mean elite elite athletes to you know seventy eight year old wonderful women
Beau Beard (41:52.046)
Yeah.
Clayton (42:03.777)
Just boom. They do their breathing every day, it changes their physiology. They gain muscle, they lose fat. when when I te get a an elite athlete to read and juggle, their poise just improves, their prowess in improves. when they don't, they don't do so well.
Beau Beard (42:28.174)
I think of I can't remember what the character's name, but Brad put Pitt's character in F one when he's if you haven't seen the movies juggling tennis balls all the time pre race, just kinda going around then the young up and comer that they're kinda at odds at one point, you know, he comes back and then he like picks up the tennis balls and he's like, Yeah, I'll try this and you know
Clayton (42:28.246)
Mm.
Beau Beard (42:49.368)
Brad Pitt's throwing cars and he's kind of the old school guy, but I just think that like that's what comes to my mind of this guy that's doing things and nobody taught him, but everybody's like, I want be like that guy. And like you said, it's like a you you use this term which I haven't brought up yet, like this phase transition. So when you talk about this phase transition in people's lives, which I want to get into of, you know, you even kind of I think you brought up the book, The Brain That Changes Itself and concepts like that, which Joe Dispenza has become wildly popular.
Clayton (43:04.459)
Yeah.
Beau Beard (43:17.4)
You know, with kind of ideas around this fact of, you know, those variables are out of our control, but the things you can control is that internal dialogue, or maybe even shutting that off every once in a while. What what are some of the biggest things? Is it those simple exercises that if somebody's not going to go to a clinician, say somebody's listening to this, whether it's a clinician that's having a hard point in their life, or that's not pain based, or somebody's listened to it that is dealing with something in the you know, muscoskeletal realm?
Clayton (43:27.466)
Yeah, yeah.
Beau Beard (43:47.298)
What are the things that create these phase transitions? These like these jump off points where from that point forward everything kind of starts, you know, moving in the right direction, more or less.
Clayton (43:58.932)
Yeah, I mean and you know, phase transition obviously is not a a term that that I created. It's it's been around a long time and it it it just showed up in a new book I'm reading on you know, the half life of facts. Pretty pretty fun book on on on how you we're we're changing what we do all the time. I think the most potent thing for
Having phase transition is is is the nothing else. And and and this is emphasized in the book, it's emphasized in our clinical practice and it's it's and and and so it's it's do these things and and and reduce the undesirable things. So that that I think is what allows for that that
that and many phase transitions to happen. And and and to be okay with it happening outside of what you do, I think is is also really, really helpful. so that that'd probably be my recommendation there. And and so that's why these things have to be simple enough to to to be executed and and continued.
It just can't can't be something that's hard or or complex. and and and you you can't stress about not getting it done either. That that that sort of gets back to the hold on loosely idea and and hold on loosely I think is is is probably one of the most valuable things for people to gain from a book. And a number of my
Beau Beard (45:44.631)
Mm-hmm.
Clayton (45:57.061)
elite athletes really really took to that. They that when they're in the middle of something they would remember the glasses and and and hold on loosely.
Beau Beard (46:08.781)
Yeah.
What so talking about, you know, these simple things, you know, breathing exercise, balance, juggling, like you said, there's a f quite a few in the book. But when we talk about, you know, senses, y you talk about building extraordinary prowess in one sense to kind of just make your basically the way I took it is make your life a little more richer, right? To make the experience of life a little bit better. But you really didn't dive into how.
Clayton (46:24.223)
Yeah.
Beau Beard (46:38.07)
So is it these things right that we just listed to build these? Or are there specific things for each sense? And then that gets more specific. because I I love that because again, in our world, I say our world of, you know, as a hands-on clinician, you know, we're taught to use our hands, use our visual. I teach a course called Art of Assessment and we talk about just observation skills, like how people build general observation skills.
Which you wouldn't believe how many people can't name a single tree outside their office they've walked into for the past decade. And it's like, You pay attention? Like, so how do people work on those senses, or if we had to use one sense as an example?
Clayton (47:16.959)
Hmm. Yeah, I think I think that's a real underappreciated piece to to helping folks, but also helping yourself is is the sensory sensory awareness piece. And it's gaining some recognition, the some some recent pieces on somatic therapy, even mentioning Thomas Hanna and and and Feldman Christ, folks like that.
Yeah and you know the the the breathing practice, the the juggling, all those things are are floods to you you're gaining more awareness if you're paying attention. If if you're paying attention so so y you you can you can do the best exercise but if you're not if you don't have a sense of what's happening then it
it's gonna have a limited limited effect. And one of the things that's important when teaching exercise or even applying a a clinical approach is is to ask where did you feel that? So and because if and and so if if they f if you don't ask that, you know they're most of the time they're not feeling it where the where where the target is. So and you when you do that, when you explore there
Beau Beard (48:27.118)
Mm-hmm.
Clayton (48:43.185)
you are beginning to teach sensory sensory awareness to that person. So critical to to gain that for the individual. they're they've usually dulled that. The the client has dulled that. so they're they're usually poorly aware. And so you flooding as many of the sensory experiences you can and I I speak to in the book
Beau Beard (48:56.174)
Yeah.
Clayton (49:10.975)
When you're outside try to focus on focus on a tree, focus on the leaves while also sensing the bottom of your foot and and or listening so so so really tuning in and and peripherally accessing another sense. So that type of dance within your senses helps helps build that and and you know, I I've used that
with with clients and and athletes and if you do that consistently, even for just a couple of minutes a day, you'll you'll improve, you'll start noticing noticing things and you know and it and it's you know it's it's a simple concept of accessing and redistributing your sensory your sensory inputs and sensory awareness. And so it's so it's what a a a blind or deaf
person does so they they don't have access to one sense so they they they get an increased stimulus for the others and it it gets really good right and and and so if if you just tune in one you know make another more subtle you'll you'll you'll start to gain gain more heightened activation and and awareness in in those areas and the
And making sure you you have a sensory awareness piece or pieces in your in your your daily daily movement strategy. So you know something that you do every day in the morning or or evening where you're you're tuning in. And so what am I sensing with with that with that movement?
Beau Beard (51:06.19)
I'm just curious, what do you think is one of the most common plights on reducing our sensory perception as like a human nowadays? Is it I mean, just phones or airpods, or is there anything you're like, God, if we could just ixney this in people's lives, it would just, you know, amplify the the better, the positive.
Clayton (51:28.158)
Hmm. Yeah.
Well certainly you know the the whole screen time is is a is a real detriment. We we continue to ignore it. But it it's it's a it's a real detriment and distraction from doing good things and and so and but some of these things aren't going to go away, they're they're not likely to to slow down but and that's where
I I I recommend for for practitioners to recommend the other good things. So so just read a book. So read a book thirty minutes a day or and and yes so y y all these challenges are there if we counteract them and and and the kind of fun thing happens when you do those things every day, you you start to
get less interested in in those in those other things. And the Well the I mean the juggling and and just wanted to touch on that. It it is, you know, hands down one of the easiest, most wonderful things you can do for your brain and your and your nervous system. And what will most folks tell you though? They'll say, I tried it I can't. Try it I can't. And and and just just
Beau Beard (52:34.926)
Yeah, yeah.
We said sorry, go ahead.
Beau Beard (52:59.054)
Mm-hmm.
Clayton (53:03.144)
Just that is wonderfully therapeutic for your parasympathetic nervous system. Because what to to to really execute and get good at that simple one ball toss requires relaxing enough to contract and throw it up, and then relaxing enough to catch it calmly and and and with good certainty.
And and and so just that is is a parasympathetic stimulus. And then if you work at that long enough your toss your one toss gets good, then three just becomes a piece of cake. and and maybe two ball juggling. My wife two ball juggles every day and you know she's you know not the most at ath athletic
Beau Beard (53:47.278)
Mm-hmm.
Clayton (54:00.962)
in in term in terms of coordination of a real talent in in a number of ways, but she two bobble jug juggles without a problem.
Beau Beard (54:09.93)
Mm-hmm. But you said have a having a practice to kind of, you know, plug in or tune in. You mentioned the term, you know, mural or neuromusculoskeletal hygiene. I was just curious, like what is your hygiene, you know, routine daily? Like what's that look like? Or if you just highlighted a few things out of that.
Clayton (54:30.056)
Yeah. So, you know, I do some somatic you know, some every morning I I do some somatic movements of coordination and and and awareness in in my my body, some some form of breathing practice,
some mobility, additional mobility movement. then I I do some some version of some one-leg balance some version of some some pushes and and pulls of just activation and and and and then throughout the day I'm I'm I'm I'm touching balls, juggling usually at least once
I'm so that that's my NMS hygiene probably that I get some version of in every day. And and I I I do you know, training and exercise you know, regularly throughout the week too, but that's that's my NMS hygiene.
Beau Beard (55:36.408)
Mm-hmm.
Beau Beard (55:47.02)
Yeah. Yeah, I was just curious. And so it sounds pretty simple. So again, when we tell or ask, I guess, a patient to start making these, again, it's, you know, probably not all of that at once, but it, you know, maybe build upon a breathing practice and then add to it based on necessity for that individual. so kind of hitting some, you know, just like, you know, almost like lightning round questions from the book and just some that I ask on every podcast. But
Clayton (55:53.439)
Yeah.
Beau Beard (56:15.43)
What is one thing that you used to believe that has changed, you know, maybe it's not a one eighty, but you're like, Yeah, I've really changed my mind on that's whether it's clinical or just general in life, but what's something that for sure you're like, Yeah, I've I used to, you know, think it was this way and not so much now?
Clayton (56:30.769)
Mm.
Yeah, but probably would you know, the front of the line there would be that you know that that my manual therapy was was what was healing healing folks. And it
Beau Beard (56:47.394)
You're crushing dreams out there, Doctor Skaggs. I said you're crushing dreams right now. Everybody, all the students are like, my God. No, it's good to hear.
Clayton (56:50.397)
What's that?
Yeah. Well what what what what what what with a with a with a an asterisk here. So that and i it is highly valuable. So it it it's it's still very very valuable, highly valuable for helping people get to their healing, get to their recovery. And and I think you know, the the manual practitioner is
is is wonderfully positioned to help help folks get fit to to heal, get fit, get in a position to recover and heal. but it it it's not it's it's not the end endpoint and and and and I you know sometimes y I I've I have to get out of the way, I have to stop.
applying it or they won't they won't get there. Right? So Yeah.
Beau Beard (57:58.21)
Yeah. Yeah. So it's almost like it doesn't end with wow. Like you said, we all want that wow, but you can't like be like, yeah, we're done. Like it's that's that's the beginning probably. okay, if we flip that question around. So again, whether it's clinical or general, like what is one thing that you're like, I know this is the way it is, I think this is true, but there's no, you know, clinical evidence, there's no, you know, peer reviewed literature on that thing. You're just like, Yep, if I had to, know
Clayton (58:08.595)
Yeah.
Beau Beard (58:26.848)
mortgage my house against this idea, what would that be?
Clayton (58:32.167)
Hm. well that that we we as humans have the capacity to to change most most things. We we we have the capacity to change our physiology and I I see it as I see it.
all the time. It it's it it is in the literature. it is it is hard. It gets really hard when we've allowed things to to get in into trouble. but it it it I believe we do have the capacity to to change most most things. And you know it it it it's how spontaneous healing processes happen.
But th that requires sometimes abrupt changes in the environment, abrupt changes in the in the person's relationship or or or culture. But but it it can happen for for less you know less pathologic conditions like like joint joint problems or or neurusculoskeletal problems very easily.
with with getting getting those other things out of the way.
Beau Beard (01:00:03.768)
Yeah. Well, I didn't plan on asking this, but we said earlier, you said in the book, I should say it this way, that, you know, kind of understanding is the way out or understanding's, you know, the the key. But when we talk about that of like how complex and how kind of wonderfully unknown, you know, if you kind of I I kind of gave it this, you know, silly term of this like like competent confusion. Like the closer you get to the top, like whether any profession that you're like,
Nobody really knows what's going on because the further you get, like the more we realize we don't know and that we don't really understand, there's just a lot of information, right? There's no conclusions in science. It's just what is that, Parkinson's law, or where there's just unending hypothesis? So like if we said, Okay, should there be maybe a way to better generally educate the lay public on physiology or their anatomy? Where I think we I think personally we don't do justice, right? We're
Clayton (01:00:47.677)
Yeah yeah.
Beau Beard (01:01:01.752)
We're told as clinicians are supposed to talk to them like fifth graders and like water stuff down, but then it's like, well, it's your body, and it's like wildly complex. And I'm kind of hearing from you that the more understand it, the better you are. But then how do we connect the dot to well, you gotta allow almost allow for like the unknown, right? Like you gotta know you can make change, you gotta understand the physiology, but how do we connect that last piece where like, God, spontaneous healings? I can feel better even though the MRI says my back is, you know, completely, you know, done for.
How do we allow for that while we're on the path to understanding?
Clayton (01:01:36.593)
Yeah, and I think that that sort of gets into the the the idea and and the the appreciation of you know we're not we're not ever really in control of it. And and and so the the more you I think you you embrace that, you you then will will understand that there's there's going to be
new new elements that that that come our way even once this this condition maybe maybe reduces and and and so but if you think you control it and I I love I love Alan Langer's comment on this. It if you think you know then you're you're gonna stop you're gonna stop listen you're gonna stop looking for
Beau Beard (01:02:30.584)
Yeah.
Clayton (01:02:34.182)
what's going on and then then you become and she as she phrases mindless. But if you stay in discovery, and and that's that's where I think most people heal, is when they when you can help move them into a state of discovery versus knowing. And and that I that that's where medicine just from the from the initial visit they they get it a little sideways.
'Cause they say, I know this is what's going on and and here's what you need to do. Well, that that just hard hard hardly ever pans out, right? Versus if you say, Look, here's here's what I'm seeing, here's what these assessments are showing, and and here's essentially w where I think things you know will likely go for you.
Beau Beard (01:03:11.714)
Good luck. Yeah.
Clayton (01:03:31.152)
If you do these things and and that's gonna be a a journey like this and gonna take some time, there's gonna be some ups and downs. and at the end of the day, though my reassurance is you're okay. You're you're okay, and there's a path, there's a path here, and and and if you can if you can tell folks that
They'll they'll get on board with you and and and and get going most of the time. Most of the time if
Beau Beard (01:04:05.566)
Yeah. Yeah. yeah, I think it's always I always like to kind of keep in mind, even for myself, I mean, I had like a weird back thing, which I've never I'm forty two, I've never really had back pain. And like to remember like there's paths, right? Like I sit here and try to noodle on what's going on and like I'll think, it's probably this based on what I did. And I'm like, it's not, and you're like, Okay, you're I'm weaving my way through, which I kinda feel guilty about if I'm gonna be honest sometimes, like, why can't I figure my own stuff out? I'm supposed to be good. And you're like, Well
Clayton (01:04:33.799)
Yeah.
Beau Beard (01:04:34.274)
Gosh, this stuff is hard. It's not like you said, it's not, you have this and this is the way out. That, yeah, if you get acute trauma, like you mentioned earlier, that gets maybe a little more, you know, on that path. Yeah, I like that idea of like, you know, it's kind of like, you know, tributaries flowing into a river. Well, if we go back out, it's like, yeah, there's a lot of ways out and we're all gonna end up at the ocean. But like I I don't know if, you know, I'm the right person for you. This works today, like what it is. but again, we're not taught that in school. Like it's
Such a disservice to think that it's, you know, A plus B equals C, and then you get out and you're like, my God, like that's not it at all. well, I want to be respectful for your time, but before we jump off, I know you put a bow on it in the book of what the goal of the book is, but I want to hear it from you and let our kind of listeners hear like, what is the goal of this book? And like you said, as you're I mean, I hate to say you're moving into your fourth quarter, that seems a little dismal, but as you're moving
quarter, what's the goal of the book and then you know what's your goal maybe in the next, you know, five to ten years, you know, professionally or you know in general?
Clayton (01:05:38.908)
Thank you. And again, thank you for having me on here. I I'm honored that that you would wanna wanna hear hear from me. The the goal of the book is to help help move more people to work towards doing what matters and and the the big goal is a hundred million people to focus on doing what matters and that
And so it it's not to sell a hundred million books, it's to be a catalyst for moving our culture towards these things or or other things that that matter and like reading and and one of the things we're we're gonna be initiating soon is is is a is a strategy to help foster more reading.
Clayton (01:06:38.28)
Can you can imagine how our our culture, our health, our anxiety would improve if if individuals read ten books a year versus I think the average is one or less. And and actually real books. so there's there's a there's a pretty significant difference in in reading a book and
Beau Beard (01:06:55.48)
Yeah.
Beau Beard (01:06:59.49)
Yeah.
Clayton (01:07:07.898)
something on a device. So it it is to move move our culture forward. Again, my my big mission is to to do this for my grandkids and and their kids. And and and and that and part of that process is is is going to be a platform that we're working on that that's getting closer to emphasis on assessment. So assessment that that
in individuals can can apply, certainly practitioners can apply that help help you know where you stand, help you know are you are you hitting the target? and and and so that that's something that's that's moving forward. but one thing that a a client suggested to me recently that I think could be helpful for for practitioners
in in using the book is is to w one, read the book yourself, but then when you recommend it to a patient or or someone to s suggest a a a chapter. So so for a young woman who's maybe having some some trouble, hey read the poised chapter you know, about Ashbarty or
Beau Beard (01:08:22.349)
Yeah.
Clayton (01:08:33.392)
or read the Art of Indifference chapter about Molly Seidel. Because while the book is simple, it it is a lot. And and it it it I I reread it recently and it was as usual when you reread your stuff you're like, my gosh, what what was I thinking there about so I I think if you know it's recommended to read parts or or maybe say go to the
Beau Beard (01:08:33.486)
Mm-hmm.
Clayton (01:09:02.64)
sensory you know sensory awareness section and just pick a couple of those things to do. or the executive maybe you know go to the letting go chapter. That that's a that that's a pretty good one. And then lastly we are we are going to be within the next you know probably six to eight months you know beginning to look for
practitioners to help us move these things forward and and and and so you know that that that'll be something we'll we'll hopefully team up with some some maybe groups like yours to to you know coordinate you know a a pilot or launching of of of these you know these models, these methods that that we're doing.
Beau Beard (01:10:02.68)
Very cool. Well, it seems like as most, you know, kind of pioneers or trailblazers headed a different direction that the mass feel, but that's why we need you and that's why I wanted to have you on the show. So I'm excited to see what what is coming down the pipeline. But for anybody that's listening again, we'll put links in the show notes to you know the book itself, The Power of Doing What Matters. And I highly suggest or echo what Dr. Skag said about a real book.
I just I'm guilty of it because it's so easy to take notes on a Kindle and then go reference them. But like comprehension, recall, but also like my focus, cause I I like I have a little scatterbrain. I'll open like twenty five books at once on a Kindle and just bounce around like a bug and it's like I used to think that was like somehow f like cool and I'm like, that's terrible. Like I read a book and finish it, and maybe have two, maybe have a fiction and a nonfiction, but like
Clayton (01:10:51.307)
Ha.
Beau Beard (01:10:57.076)
It was getting too much. So I put down the Kindle for a while. So go read the book, pick it up. hopefully see, you know, Dr. Skaggsy said he may be coming back into the teaching venue here. But yeah. any last words of wisdom or anything before we sign off here?
Clayton (01:11:12.679)
yeah, not I my I don't know, I think my wisdom is is i i is shrinking as as time goes on. But but you know, I again well I appreciate seeing you and and getting to know you know you more and and your your having me on to to to share these things and and lastly one thing I haven't
talked about that I I think is is key for any practitioner is the team I have at in St. Louis that we've been developing for all these years is is just incredible and I you know they I you know that that that's something that I aired in early on. I thought I thought I could do it all. I thought
I I was the magic and I wouldn't be even close to where I am in individually and helping folks and and certainly with what I know and and and how I can help help clients in the capacity that that we help them without this team. I mean the and and Sue. that that would probably be something I would recommend is doing.
Don't think you can and so even if you're a solo practitioner, you you know, to get a circle around you to help help help folks move forward.
Beau Beard (01:12:53.622)
And I need to take that advice each and every day as well. So I'll take that to heart. Well, thank you again, Dr. Skaggs, for coming on the show. And hopefully I get to see you in person at some point. And if you do get a chance, if like let's say you're you know, close to Saint Louis area, you know, Logan student, like amazing facility, go check it out if you ever get the chance. Highly encourage you and thanks again. Appreciate it.
Clayton (01:13:15.826)
Thank you, Beau.
