Why Peeing Your Pants Isn't Cool | Dr. Lindsay Mumma, DC

Discover the unconventional insights that could revolutionize how you view healing, communication, and the human body. Lindsay Mooma, a visionary chiropractor and educator, reveals how curiosity, emotional awareness, and simple language can transform patient outcomes—and your own practice. This episode isn’t just about musculoskeletal health; it’s a deep dive into how living authentically and openly can unlock recovery from trauma, pain, and even autoimmune conditions. Lindsay shares her journey from a childhood filled with love and loss to becoming a pioneer in pelvic health and holistic care. You’ll learn how she uses storytelling, everyday conversations, and a profound curiosity about the human experience to connect with patients beyond symptom management. Her approach emphasizes that healing starts when we address the emotional and psychological barriers to movement and function—understanding which often go unnoticed in traditional care.

Full Transcript

Beau Beard (01:26.382)

Yeah, that dream. So literally, I you were writing a like, I don't know, like a miniature ninja, but it did. I am. I am for sure. I'm always recording. like this mini, but the motorcycle changed throughout the dream, but you were selling me these little discs like on a shelf or showing me, you weren't selling me. You were showing me you're like this one, and it had writing on it. You're like, this one's for this, and this one's for this. I was like,

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:36.818)

Are you recording yet? Because I feel like this should be the hook.

Beau Beard (01:55.704)

Do I need all these? And you're like, Yeah, I think you do. And was like, and then you took off on a different motorcycle. And I like, damn it, she is because like I'm forbidden from riding motorcycles per slone because she thinks I'm gonna somebody's gonna just absolutely crush me on the highway. So yeah. Yeah, it is. So I don't know what that means, but

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (02:10.038)

Fair. Totally fair.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (02:15.442)

Okay, all right. So I was on a motorcycle, you were jealous of that, and I was selling witchcraft tinctures.

Beau Beard (02:21.495)

So if I had to break down my own dream, I'd be like Lindsay's going places in a cool way. she's doing things different and sometimes that can look like magic. That's that's my takeaway.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (02:34.153)

Wow, that's really fantastic. There's actually I'm trying to remember where I originally saw this. It like two years ago that somebody was talking about the way that the universe communicates with you. And it is almost easier to realize like the signs and like big shit that comes your way if you say it as if it was a dream. Right? Like when you have a dream that you get into a parking lot and there's no place for you to park and you're running late and blah, blah, blah, then you're like,

Beau Beard (02:55.425)

Hmm. yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (03:03.089)

I can understand that there are I am foreseeing that there are blockages and I'm not utilizing my time appropriately and whatever. So if you look at the circumstances in your life and you say, I had a dream that the week that me and my family moved to a new space, my office flooded and I

had to clear out everything in the gym and cancel all of the classes and replace the solo pad for my sauna and the chiller for my plunge, then I can like start to parse out like what is the universe communicating with me in my waking time that I could like kind of consider in my dream state and almost makes it a little bit more fun.

Also, like that, I just I have such perspective because like one of my employees got shot in the face. Like that I someone got murdered on my team. My office flooded, who gives a shit? You know, like there's just such a difference. And I know that every there's the Mudmen tribe in Papua New Guinea has a saying that knowledge is just a rumor until it lives in the muscle. And I love that so much because

Beau Beard (04:14.581)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (04:24.357)

It's so true to me. And I I think that this is part of what our work with patients can do is let them, you know, conceptually they understand breathing mechanics matter and the way that they load their glutes and activate, like they can they c they get that. But then when you help them feel themselves better, now that knowledge that was a rumor, well I heard that it matters that my glutes activate, now it lives in the muscle and now they can actually

experience that and that's such a different way of moving through the world than knowing up here that your glutes are supposed to activate to actually feel it and have that experience. And so I knowledge of, well, at any given point any of us could have our last day is just such a different like and I've I've actually experienced a a lot of death in my life. like I touched my first dead person when I was seven. I saw a woman get struck by lightning

I that's not true. I saw a woman right after she got struck by lightning. when I was 15, I went to seven different calling hours in the same year. And it was just like I I have friends who have like never lost anyone close to them. And I'm like, that's cool for you. That's not been my experience. And yet it still was not until I lost Mary in such a like dramatic fashion that the stresses of little things.

Beau Beard (05:35.319)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (05:49.736)

Right. Like I get that a flood could be a big thing and like half of my office was underwater. But like it's such a little thing because no one's dead. And that, like, I'm eternally grateful that I didn't let that lesson just slide past me. That I actually like have the presence of being grateful for this woman who was in my life and I lost in this very traumatic way. And my practice took a frickin' nosedive as a result of.

Beau Beard (05:56.429)

Yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (06:17.787)

And so like all of those things, like that was stressful and hard, and my office flooded. Okay, we'll be fine. Like, I don't know. It's just I'm I'm grateful for the perspective of it. What's that? We're gonna start with death and then we're gonna go from there. There's a miniature motorcycle.

Beau Beard (06:21.397)

Mm-hmm.

Beau Beard (06:27.095)

come we're coming out of gates. We're coming out of the gates hot. I love it. I love it. I love it.

You keep Yeah, this is

But no, I'm if you took that and you're like, well, what do we have to not that this is every patient experience, but a lot of what we're doing for people, at least I feel, I mean, I want to hear what your take is, is like we're helping them reframe. And I'm not talking about, you know, classifying pain, any of honor, reframing, you know, pain. I'm saying like, yeah, your shoulder hurts, but you can do X, Y, Z now, right? your shoulder still hurts, but like, remember when it hurt so bad you couldn't like lift yourself off the table? Like, that's a lot because they don't have livid experience with that thing. And then

We also, in my opinion, live in the world of information where you said, I love that, you know, saying of the mud men, where they experience it, but they've also probably been told a bunch of stuff that didn't end up living in their muscle memory by all these other people or social media or XYZ before they see you, which puts up a little bit of a barricade of a wall of like, I think all this is bullshit. And what you're telling me is probably bullshit too. So it makes it harder to accept or, you know, have a whatever you want to call placebo effect.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (07:21.597)

Mm-hmm.

Beau Beard (07:37.507)

so yeah, what what's your take on delivery of what we do? Right. Like how we do the things. Like, yeah, we all like DNS and MPI and all that, but like how we give it to the person, how we deliver it based on what they're giving us back. Like, how do we get good at that or recognize how to do that different person person?

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (07:56.756)

I think that is the art of being a healthcare provider. And I think that that is something that I am legitimately intentionally practicing every single day. I the book Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg changed my life. 100% changed my life. And I recommend that every like all of the MPI instructors have a slide of books that they recommend, and obviously your pelvic floor sucks is on everyone's slide. but the the

Beau Beard (08:21.517)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (08:26.895)

One of the books that is on that list that I really do think every provider should read is nonviolent communication. And the title sucks. And I'm not not like in your public floor sucks way, but like it's just so uninviting of a title. Like I'm not a violent communicator. I don't need to learn how to communicate without guns and knives. Like that's not it just sounds so off-putting. Like there's nothing like it. That book sat on my shelf for a while. And gratefully, the woman who

Told me to read that book. I actually already had the book and I had not read it. Her name is Rosalind Ross, and she's this parent educator of sorts. And she said the title of the book made me not read it for a long time. I was like, my gosh, that is a hundred percent my experience. Like, I don't want to read this book because the title is not enticing to me. But I realized how much I was attempting to fix my patients' problems.

And so many of my patients actually just want to be heard and they haven't been heard by a healthcare practitioner. And I we can talk about power dynamics if you want to. Like we can go down that rabbit hole. Like I have no power over another human and I shouldn't. And I don't want it. And I will sometimes tell my patients, like,

Beau Beard (09:27.808)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (09:43.057)

I didn't do your exercises. I'm like, well, I do my exercises. These are exercises that I have introduced to you, and I understand that grammatically that's more of a mouthful, but they're not my exercises. These are exercises that I taught you. If you'd like to take ownership of them, you can. If you don't want to take ownership of them, then I think we need to have a further conversation. But I have two dependents on my tax return plus this business. And other than that, I don't want any more dependence. I do not want to have power over another human. And people

give power to doctors. And that is such a responsibility and a privilege that I think a lot of doctors completely take for granted. And when a patient just wants you to hear their story and the pain that they've experienced and you come in with a solution because you didn't hear that what the actual problem is is that they had a divorce and they think they'll never have sex again. And they're

Pelvic floor is gonna take about like, I mean, obviously I'm dealing in my world, but like I've I see weekend warriors and desk jockeys and all sorts of people. I don't just only see pelvic floor things, but like she doesn't actually care that she has incontinence. She cares that she doesn't find herself attractive since her divorce three years ago, and she's had a hard time dating, and she doesn't feel sexy enough to like vulnerably open herself up to another human.

But she's coming to me because so-and-so said you're supposed to help me with incontinence. But if I don't hear the backstory because I'm not doing my job, my job primarily is to sit before a patient and witness them. And then take whatever tools I have in my tool bag that I've amassed and which has mo like I got a shit ton of classes that I've taken. Most of the stuff that I've learned has been from taking what I learned in those classes and then learning it with a patient.

Beau Beard (11:19.81)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (11:36.071)

Because knowledge is just a rumor until it lives in the muscle. So we have to actually like apply the things that we learn in a DNS class. And then, well, how does that fit into factor? Which maybe this is just a sales pitch for the art of assessment. I don't know. I'm not paid to be here. But the, but the like the learning of applying this to a patient and seeing how that helps, and then realizing, I heard you say this, and that doesn't, that sounds so shitty to say.

Beau Beard (11:36.395)

Hm, yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (12:05.63)

What I hear you say is this like no one else like I I hear you coming a mile away. I just want to make sure that I understand the most important thing to you right now is that we address your incontinence, but it's because you want to feel sexy in some lingerie without having to put a panty liner on. Is that right? And if I can actually extract that from the information that the patient gives me, now what I say can land because they took those walls down.

Because they've had the walls up, like you were talking about 15 minutes ago, but I sure can take a tangent. They put up those walls because they're so sick of going to the doctor and having someone write them a prescription. I don't care if the prescription is a physical written drug prescription or if it's exercise or if it's see me three times a week for the next month. Someone gave them a prescription without actually hearing what their freaking problem was. They keep their walls up and they don't hear anything. Everything that you give to them bounces off their walls. Whereas if you actually

hear what they want. My job is not to deliver chiropractic care. My job is to meet the patient where they are with whatever tools I have available and let them know if I think I can help them and then to put that into play and actually help them improve in ways that are within my wheelhouse and then give them connections to other people who are able to help in ways that I cannot, if that's what's necessary. Or simply

be with them for the 15 minutes that they paid for my time. And I think like I have had to kick the absolute loving shit out of my ego for like knowing what's wrong with somebody and being able to fix it. And stepping back to like actually, I think like I'm so much less certain than I was 15 years ago. Like when I started in practice, I was like, I got this, let's go. I'm like so ready to help everyone and solve the world's problems. And now I'm like

Maybe. But you know what I am gonna do is I'm gonna be on your team. I am gonna listen to you. I'm gonna ensure that the things that I think are actually contributing to the symptoms that you described to me are getting better, whether or not you feel that or not. I'm gonna I'm gonna make sure that I keep my objective hat on, but your subjective experience is very important to me because you're not gonna keep paying me, and I'm a cash practice, you're not gonna keep paying me to

Beau Beard (14:22.861)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (14:29.413)

not help you with what it is that you want help with, even if I am a really good listener, right? So what was the question?

Beau Beard (14:36.491)

Know, but if I can say two things on there, I had a podcast with Brett Bartholomew, and you know, he's kind of the communications guy, and you know, foraying off into very good. And he, when he was talking, I literally had one of these embarrassing realizations, and we kind of talked afterwards about this specifically. He's like a lot of times in the healthcare world, because he comes from the SNC world into communication, so he fully understands where we're coming from.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (14:45.595)

I saw your snippets. I have not listened to that podcast yet, but I'm looking forward to it 'cause I'm excited about it.

Beau Beard (15:03.403)

And he goes, Yeah, like most of the time a practitioner is just bringing logic to a problem that like the last thing you want is logic. And I at first I was like, I used to do that. I used to give them the, you know, the 10 $10,000 words and explain all the terminology. And I go, no, I still just do it. I just try to dumb it down. Yeah, like, and I was like, I am just logicing my and I mean, I hate to say it, that's kind of like mansplaining. Like, I tend to lean that way. Like, I'm like, you want help? Like, I'll I'll put on my logic cap and be like, hey, this is how you fix it. And he was like,

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (15:20.101)

I did that today.

Beau Beard (15:33.652)

That doesn't really work. He goes, There's one archetype of the five that usually that'll work. But he goes, that usually didn't even work with them. And I was like, I do that. The other thing when you were saying, you know, Mavi now it's a maybe, which I think is way more honest and real. you know, a very sad case. Literally, just the other day, a woman came in that I've seen for years. she's in her 30s, she has had had has scoliosis.

I thought that was largely affecting your low back pain. She comes in and says, Can you close the door? And I do. And she says, I've been in a abusive relationship and I've been doing some things to take care of that. And I've realized that my back pain flares up when I go to certain therapies for that. And I'm like, Was I am I a terrible practitioner? Because I'm over here using musculoskeletal tests to see reproducible, you know, objective outcomes. And she's like, Yeah, I think all my back pain was emotionally produced. And I'm like, Man, I'm I'm good. Cool. I'm I'm

I'm doing real good over here. So I mean, like you said, you just get kicked in the teeth all the time. But I mean, stuff like that. I kind of was like, well, how would I have known that? But again, maybe I could have listened more. Maybe there were clues that she was laying down. I don't know. But like that's I'm at the same stage you are. I'm like, geez, like it's rarely now getting better with my hands or some new assessment or some whatever. It's like

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (16:33.287)

Me's a good doctor.

Beau Beard (16:55.211)

Am I really listening? Am I really seeing what they're, you know, putting down? am I applying what I have appropriately to who's in front of me? I mean, that's like that's I think it's way harder, but it's far more important in my opinion.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (17:06.407)

And I think it like the thank God for the patients that I saw in the first five years I was in maybe ten years I was in practice because yesterday, like the the the patients are the ones who let me like fumble my way through figuring out how to have this conversation. And you know, like basically every single person who walks in my door is like a guinea pig for that day. Let's call them beta testers. That sounds nicer. Beta testing.

Lindsay Mooma's communication skills today to see how how are we doing in terms of the approachability, right? Obviously, you set up a system of trust and rapport with that woman because she did tell you. And it probably took a long time for her to get to that point. And there are so many people who are in abusive relationships who don't realize that their relationship is abusive and it's not like that, you know, just to.

Beau Beard (17:49.666)

Mm-hmm.

Beau Beard (17:53.729)

Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (18:04.35)

kind of give you a little like she told you, which means that she does trust you. So clearly there's like some element there that allowed her to free that up. But what a huge realization for her to realize, I I did have this very real musculoskeletal pain that showed up as a result of emotional hopefully not physical, but like also like who who cares? It's the s the same thing if you're being abused. but for

So many patients, they're they're not willing to examine that the people they hang out with are actually making them have physical pain. And that sucks because, you know, you're like the average of the five people you spend the most time with. And if one of those people is causing you harm on a daily basis, then you like turn into that painful presentation. Yikes. I just I I think that the

Beau Beard (18:44.909)

Mm-hmm.

Beau Beard (18:58.231)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (19:04.445)

when someone walks in the room, I think my ability to just completely let go of any preconceived notion. Cause like I take a look at their note before, like they filled out their paperwork and I want to kind of like just like I want to be able to conversationally touch base with them. My new patient this morning had a table saw incident and I was like, I'd like to talk about the table saw incident. I was it just was such a fantastic note.

Honest chart. but like I want to be able to conversationally talk about the things that they took their time to write on a form. And I also want to completely let go of, well, they have X, Y, and Z, and I saw this yellow flag and this means this, and like already have it determined before I actually do a physical exam, before I actually listen to them tell me what they had to take out of.

their brain and their experience and their body and their history and put into a form. Like that form history is not the history that they share with me. And and like I used to have paperwork that you filled out more than like kind of pre-populated stuff that you select and then the algorithm takes you to the next thing. And I love Cairo up CHR. That's it's not a fault to them. I'm still doing the in-person history taking. And especially because I see so much pelvic floor dysfunction. And like

Beau Beard (20:04.877)

Mm.

Beau Beard (20:17.293)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (20:30.311)

I used to discover pelvic floor dysfunction in people that didn't realize that peeing their pants was not normal. Now people like come to me. Right. But like I I have ever since I started intentionally taking care of pelvic floors, I have specifically out loud asked a patient, even if the the the questionnaire already said, do you experience any loss of urine? Right. Like I had it I and I kept changing the wording on it to try and get patients to like actually tell me.

Beau Beard (20:36.395)

We'll we'll get there. Yeah, so we'll keep there. Yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (20:59.815)

They will not tell me unless I ask them in person. So like the in person conversation is completely different than what they read on the forum. And it's so important. And so like when people can do a new patient exam in 10 minutes, I'm like, can you?

Beau Beard (21:11.277)

I can't. I I can't. No.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (21:13.307)

I I can't and very obviously I'm quite loquacious, but like I cannot do a new patient exam in ten minutes because I don't even know your like what you did in the last two days, let alone your actual health history that's important and like how you got to where you are, which is in my office, paying me money to help you. And I just I

Beau Beard (21:34.156)

Well, and the point, the point of questions. I always highlight this for like students and interns is on our paperwork, it says any surgeries like anybody's paperwork does. I ask the exact same question. Then maybe not right then. Maybe as I'm getting into it, as I suspect something, but usually again, I'll be like, any abdominal surgeries. I mean 90% of people, even yeah, even C sections, they'll be like, I've had I've had three C sections. Like, my God, like, and by the way, I'm numb there. but and then you're like,

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (21:53.417)

Tummy tuck.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (21:58.248)

yeah.

Beau Beard (22:03.819)

And that gets registered as a non surgery because they're thinking very orthopedic, right? I think because of where they're coming and what they're coming for. But I I'm

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (22:08.453)

Mm-hmm. And they they do not tell you about their cosmetic procedures either.

Beau Beard (22:13.545)

which you gotta yeah, you look behind their ear, you're like picking it and you're like, hey. And then, you know, in certain scenarios it really it always matters, but some scenarios it really matters. and then you, you know, you that's another art of like, well, how do you bring that up? Or you just super direct or you know, you kind of float through it. But the award in our office, you said table saw incident was throwing a beaver. That was written on the paperwork where I was like, I literally that's all it said.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (22:38.193)

Yeah.

Beau Beard (22:40.779)

The mom had filled it out because it was they were a patient, they were sending their son in. So they live in the country and he had shot a beaver and threw it onto the bank after he and I was and he hurt his back. And I was like, This may be the best. Like I'm only at this point, eight years into practice. I don't know if we'll ever beat that. So yeah, that's that's the over. Yep. Yeah. Great. I a hundred percent, hundred percent. So if we go if we try to go way back here,

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (22:55.593)

Th

Throwing a beaver? Feels like a euphemism of sorts, I'm not sure.

Beau Beard (23:09.545)

Have you always, and I don't want to say I don't want you to think contrarian is negative, but you take a you know, if everybody's going right, you may go left. Has that always been cooked into you? And why do you think that's kind of part of your nature of like, I'm gonna try to take a different path? I'm gonna do something. Well, the reason I say that is chiropractors notoriously seem to be that subset. People be they're already kind of divergent a little bit, but then it's like you get into the chiropractic problem and they're ooh, this whole field is just kind of everybody's doing their own thing.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (23:22.505)

Why are you the way that you are?

Beau Beard (23:38.178)

But then you play in this, you know, you're an instructor for MPI, you have written a book, you teach for various, you know, Parker. So kind of these standard institutions within chiropractic. But then if we went into Lindsay Mooma's kind of everyday life, I'm assuming we'd be like, man, she does some kind of not crazy stuff, but some stuff that not all people are doing. So was that, you know, parenting? Was that parenting? Was that developed along the way? Did you kind of have to push back? I mean, I know a lot of people have very

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (23:58.237)

Say more, Bo. What?

Beau Beard (24:07.991)

You know, my scenario, like my parents were very just kind of blue collar ho hum and it like that drove me to be like, Well, what else is there? You know, versus like my parents were giving me, you know, literature and things to explore and art to look at. It was just, well, what else is out there? So what what in your life kind of brought that about?

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (24:15.252)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (24:26.835)

So everything?

Beau Beard (24:29.922)

Yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (24:32.199)

That's my answer. Because I I I grew up in a very loving family. I don't I actually I don't know a lot of people who like I had pretty much an idyllic childhood with the exception of there was a lot of death. So I grew up on a farm, I grew up on fourteen acres, I had two parents for a good chunk of time I was playing four sports, my brother was playing three sports, he was one year ahead of me in school or two years apart, and no one

ever failed to show up for me. I like i if I had a softball scrimmage, somebody was there watching. So like one of my and my parents are still married. My grandparents celebrated their 70th wedding anniversary a couple of years ago. I don't know anyone else who reached that milestone. I I there there are people, right? But like I'm I I saw love everywhere growing up. And like my parents aren't perfect people. They're wonderful people.

I had I legitimately had like an idyllic childhood. and and and so like to have that kind of like background of love and then simultaneously have the absolute terrifying fear of everyone that I love seems to die, kind of like created this sort of juxtaposition of like that line that you have to walk, or that well, that's not true, the line that I chose to walk between like

This is sacred and beautiful and important. And I also can't take it too seriously because who knows? And then, like, you know, there it unfortunately that's been like a thing that has happened. I have lost a ton of people that I love. And it has made me appreciate like the juiciness of life so much more. And I think that I I

at some point, and I don't really know, there wasn't like a moment, but I think that I decided that I was going to have to like love my life all of the time. And the only way that I can really do that is if I just am the most me that I can be. And I like deeply discovered that in my early 30s because I had been diagnosed with two autoimmune conditions with lupus and chogrins and I was like, my God, what does that mean? And it like kind of

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (27:00.475)

a little bit messed with the identity of who I was because I I was a healthy person. I've been a healthy person since I had been through the medical ringer of I had migraines as a child and then I had low back pain. And when I found chiropractic care and like my life changed, I I then was like, I am a healthy person. And that's like how I presented myself to the world. And I actually one of the other books that's on my list that I recommend that all practitioners read is Mindset by Carol Dweck. And

I had a closed mindset, but my closed mindset like made me do great things. Like my closed mindset was that I was healthy, that I was smart, that I was athletic, that I was kind, right? So like that was the idea of who I was. And so when I when that kind of got rocked a little bit, like, wait a second, if I have autoimmune conditions, then I'm not healthy. And so who and what am I if I'm not?

healthy. And then I was like, wait a second. I'm just gonna be the healthiest person with autoimmune conditions that I can be. And then I was like, wait one more second. I actually do I even need to have an autoimmune condition? Like what does this mean? And I we're I mean whatever. We're already talking about miniature motorcycles like witchy things. So I had a lucid dream. So I started having lucid dreams when I was in high school and I some people can like lucid dream on purpose. I can not yet do that. but I had a lucid dream where

Beau Beard (28:06.151)

Yeah.

Beau Beard (28:14.027)

Yeah, we're there.

Beau Beard (28:21.313)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (28:26.149)

Everyone died and I died and that was fine with me. I'd like completely come to terms with my own mortality a very long time ago. But my children died. And I was like, I so when I have a lucid dream, I like feel myself leave my body and I feel myself slowly return. But that night I felt myself leave my body and then we were actually like in heaven.

And my youngest was with me and my oldest was like maybe coming. And I realized at that moment, like, my God, I was okay with being dead. And my husband was not coming. And those were like things that I knew instantaneously and I snapped back into my body in the most painful way that I could describe to you. I've never in my life, aside from that night, ever had a panic attack or an anxiety attack. And I had all of the symptoms of both of those. I

crawled myself to the edge of my bed to get my phone to text my husband because I could not get myself to reach over and tap him to wake him up, but I thought I was going to die.

I told you it was gonna get weird. So I

Beau Beard (29:38.795)

No, I'm I what was I guess, yeah, you don't know what you're thinking. Just the text versus the waking up. That's like like physically. Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (29:44.593)

I c I couldn't reach him. Like he was too far away and the edge of my bed was closer. So he was over an arm's length away and I couldn't voice things. So I texted him and I was like, If I die, I want you to know I'm so sorry because I didn't mean to, and I will do everything I can to protect our children. And like it was and and so I like in later reflection, so this was twenty eighteen, I think.

In later reflection, I realized that I actually felt the pain of existence. to like be an eternal soul that lives in a finite body is like kind of a lot. And I felt all of that pain. And in so doing, I realized that none of that was in my control anyway. I had been like intentionally protective of my children, and that's like instinctively, right?

But I realized that I was actually negotiating with my existence that if my kids were okay, I was okay. But if my kids weren't okay, then I was not okay because that's not okay. And so when I it it took about two weeks for me. And it was like the most depressed I've ever been. I've not before or since experienced depression like that.

I I never had an anxiety attack, I never had a panic attack, and I never had depression, with the exception of this instance. And in those two weeks, I just like kind of gradually like came out of this gray of realizing that I didn't want to live unless my kids were okay and how unfair to my children that was, because it was putting my existence, like the weight of my existence on them. And so I decided, like I made a decision in 2018 that I was only going to live.

For the sake of living, and that I was gonna love everyone around me, and that I was actually grateful to just be alive. Which I told this to my husband. I was like, I am now grateful to be alive. And he was like, Yeah. And I was like, No, you don't understand. Like, I like I've been intentionally practicing gratitude for years to like be so grateful for like how wonderful things are and like how much I love my life. And but at no point was I ever just grateful to be.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (32:09.62)

Be and I am now. And he was like, good. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me? You you didn't tell me? You didn't tell me that you're like grateful to just be alive this whole time? Like, my I my husband's some sort of old soul. Like, he's just, he knows his way around here, and I have to work so hard to like sort of get to his level of just being awesome. No, I would like to reframe that. I have had to work so hard.

Beau Beard (32:10.509)

Mm-hmm.

Beau Beard (32:39.085)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (32:39.921)

I don't necessarily have to in the future. anyway, at that point though, there was absolutely no more, there was no going back for me. I literally, when I decided, I'm gonna actually just be grateful to be alive. And if I lose everything, I'm still gonna be grateful to be here. And by everything, I mean like not just my family, but like my ability to walk, my ability to speak, my ability to help other people, my ability to do anything and be anything other than alive.

And I decided at that base level of existence, just alive, I would still choose gratitude. And when I did, I like I cannot really describe to you, but I felt my whole body just like, well, finally, like sort of like click a little bit. And I told my husband, I was like, I bet you if I retested my A and A, it would be negative. Because

Beau Beard (33:26.199)

Link out. Yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (33:34.197)

I'm no longer fighting against my own existence. And of course my cells were attacking themselves. They didn't realize that I wanted to be here. And a couple months later, there was like this insurance thing that I got denied for because I had a history of autoimmunity. And so I called them and I was like, if I got a negative A that said that I didn't have any signs of autoimmunity that was more recent than the previous one, could I qualify for this like savings thing? And they were like, I think so, but like.

I don't think you can do that. And I was like, hold my kombucha, let's do this. So I went and got I judged and I just like burst into tears when I got the test result. I already knew the answer. Like I knew there was no autoimmunity. And like I had an A and A with positive kickbacks and I had negative A and A. And I was like, Hell yes, of course, because I'm actually happy to be here and I've decided that at at every single turn I'm just gonna like check in with my heart and realize like, Am I acting from a place of like

present grateful love. And if I'm not, then what am I doing? So like my office floods. Okay. Well, thank goodness that I don't own this building. And thank goodness that there are helpful people here who are like ready to take care of things. And thank goodness that the property management company switched maintenance people like two months ago. And now the people who are here are actually like kicking ass. Like there's just so many things to be grateful for. So why would I be pissy about it?

Beau Beard (34:56.791)

Jesus, we need like four more hours.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (34:59.059)

Thanks for coming to my TED talk on how weird Lindsay Mooma is and how she got here. You're the one who asked the question.

Beau Beard (35:04.523)

I love it. No, I love it. But I think we should just have so I do this with my kids every day, almost every day of my life, up until I was probably like old enough to think my parents sucked. So maybe until I was 16 or something. my mom would ask, like, do you have any dreams? And like she would sit there and break them down with us. So like that was just one thing that she was expecting.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (35:24.201)

Mm. So that's why you're so good at dream revealing. I like it.

Beau Beard (35:27.627)

Well, I kind of well, I don't kind of think if I had my opinion on like like dreams or like core memory processing and reframe like bullshit. Like I just don't I don't buy that at all. I just I don't understand how things that I've never experienced or seen show up in a dream, if that's supposed to be like processing something I don't I don't know. but yeah, we should have a whole podcast on that because I think when we so if we go back to like if we frame things as dreams, if we

Paid attention and now people are like, there's two chiropractors on here, let them just rip right now. But we we deny ourselves these things that have been going on for thousands of years that people used to pay more homage to. And then that goes further up the ladder. Pretty soon, you can't use anecdotal evidence. don't use an intuitive process. you can't use your hands, right? You keep climbing up until you're like, Why the fuck am I a human?

You don't want me, you just don't want me to use my human things and you want me to use your, you know, yeah, imaging's great. All those things are great. But I asked the question to Clayton Skaggs when I had him on here of, okay, why did all these OGs come out of the same university at the same time? And his answer was awesome. He goes, Because they didn't have all the tech and stuff and they had to lean into the stuff that they did have, which was them, right? And they developed it and they honed it. And then when they got the technology, it just kind of edified or backed up their findings and allowed them to, you know.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (36:32.541)

That was a great show.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (36:43.283)

Yep. Yep.

Beau Beard (36:51.499)

go further. So yeah, you answered the question. We could dive way deep and, you know, we'd probably both start crying or something. But within there, you know, you had, you know, these realizations. You talked about how you communicate with the patient. Were you, you know, whether it was within friends or I don't know, within school itself, were you always kind of an educator? Or did was that always something you wanted to do? That just kind of come with the job. I don't know. Was that just something like, I fell into it?

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (37:21.605)

My parents are both educators. So I I lived on a farm. My my mom was a teacher like after I was in maybe third grade or something, my mom went back to teaching because she had stayed home with us for a handful of years and then and my dad had gone from teaching phys ed to being a principal. So most of my growing up, my dad was a principal. And and then my mom actually when I was in

high school she started being an administrator as well. And so they both were educators. So I think like maybe I had a value of education, which like I homeschool my kids. So but the I I've I now have a completely different view of education than I used to. I think I always placed a high value on education, but I also think that I really, really, really liked learning. And I think that there was a little bit of an assumption that the things that I like other people like

That I carried for like a really long time. And now I just ask people, which is kind of funny, b but like I ask people, would you would you like a history lesson on dry needling? And some people are like, okay. And other people are like, yeah. You know, but like I find it so interesting. Like Janet Trevelle is a hero of mine. And I just think like the that the idea of like injecting this painful point with

a numbing solution then led to injecting a painful point with a saline solution, which then led to these giant gauge hollow bore beveled edge needles going into a trigger point and then be wait, the acupuncturists actually already kind of do this. And just like the and the the history there I think is so fascinating. And I think when you hear that and you kind of realize like there are just so many things that people take for granted in the present moment. So like we take for granted that we call it dry needling.

And most people who practice dry needling don't know why. And I think there's just so much richness in the moment that's available when you have a little bit of the history that goes behind it. And I think that's actually what I like to share is I I think we can make this experience a little bit more rich if you have more context. And I I know I probably spent a minute in like third grade wanting to be a teacher and then decided that I wanted to be the president.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (39:43.495)

So I'm now the president of Triangle Chiropractic and Rehabilitation Center. but the check did that. but I like I decided that I wanted to be a chiropractor when I was 15 when a chiropractor changed my life. And so at no point was I like kind of thinking of that in terms of education. And realistically, the only reason why I was a rep for MPI is because I heard that they wanted a new female rep. And I had been to club like three times.

And I was like, I don't know what that is, but there's a competition afoot and I would like to win it. Like I just ridiculous. But thank God that I did. So I started going to club every single time they had club just to like make myself present and known. And then I was like, it seems cool. Like the people who are the reps here seem like they definitely know what's going on. So I want to be one of those people who knows what's going on. And I think I've just valued learning. And then because I value learning, I'd like to share that with other people.

And I really loved being a rep for MPI. And it was like just so empowering to me to like watch other people realize like this isn't so unattainable. I can do this too. And I think that just plays out in the treatment room of like, well, she's 40 and walking around on not uncomfortable. So like I think that that's attainable for me too. And she's gonna show me how to do that. So I think maybe I I never really thought that I would.

be an educator and simultaneously like I think that that's a big part of our role. Like listen, educate, provide whatever necessary treatment, like kind of all come together.

Beau Beard (41:23.605)

Feel very assured now that I'll have at least one $2.99 Patreon to my trigger point video of the entire history of trigger points from the 1700s, which we've been working on since Aaron Kubal called me out and he never would come on the podcast. That's just an old another thing, whatever. but with animation technology with consensus and AI, you can do some cool shit or like, but it that's coming. So you'll you might be the only person that's like, yay, because I'm the same way. I think, yeah, I like.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (41:39.963)

It's fine, it's not a wound, you're fine.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (41:49.833)

Yeah

Beau Beard (41:53.42)

The why is this, you know, like nobody like to this day, like I asked this in the the course I'll teach in St. Louis next week, what causes a joint restriction? And like the whole room will just be like, Well, I th I mean even practitioners like, Well, I thought it was it. And it's like, well, you don't, nobody really knows. So because you don't know, all of your treatments are less than. Now, will we ever put a complete answer? I don't know. Like, that's not the point. The point is we're always asking why you always explore it, makes you a little bit better.

It creates context within your own profession of like why am I doing the things I'm doing with my patients and why should they experience those things or not? But I love that fact that it's for you, right? The educ the education, that's what I'm hearing at least. Well, it's for me. Like I'm interested, and then I'll ask them, Do you want me to share my interest or do you just want me to, you know, pleonasm all over you? Yeah. Well, yeah, it's interesting to us. Yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (42:40.297)

I'm happy to shut up and treat you if you'd like, but like I also would love to teach you things while we're here. Yeah. And I think it I think it makes me a little bit more human for them. And I think pe like, especially now, right? Like you have so many interactions with AI that the human d like what Gary V calls the grandpa shit, like the stuff from the nineteen forties.

Is still gonna work because people still want people, people still want connection to people. And so I think the more human that we are, the better. And and like that, that is so true for me. I have to be the most me that I can be because I know what it's like to not, and I got sick. And I'm not willing to to do that again. So that's

that's how I show up in the world, which means that's how I show up in my treatment room because who you are anywhere is who you are everywhere. So that's like that's really important to me. And I think that the more human that we are as providers, the more that we're actually able to touch the humanness of the person who is asking us for help.

Beau Beard (43:52.802)

When you're humaning in front of other people, what are some of the things for a lay person that you're, you know, there are misconceptions? Cause you know, pelvic floor is one of your big specialties. What is some of the misconceptions of like pelvic floor health or dysfunction or function from the lay person? Then I want to hear the physician side where you're like, hey, these are big misconceptions in this world. And then we'll I want to get into some other specific questions on this as well.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (44:18.803)

Well, I think what's actually really interesting about this is that those two things are not as different as you just asked them. Because the the reason why I wrote a book was because I presented at Parker Vegas in twenty two and the line of people who came to ask me questions afterward, like, where do I learn more about this? And what and I didn't even know I had a pelvic floor.

Beau Beard (44:23.585)

Yeah. Which it might be which yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (44:42.055)

Like male doctors who had been in practice for 30 years. And God bless them for wanting to ask me questions instead of being like, I already know this stuff. So the the like the misconceptions about the pelvic floor are that it is normal to pee your pants, period. That that is a complete and utter misconception. Just because you've given birth, just because you're pregnant, just because you're pre-menopausal or post-menopausal.

Just because you do CrossFit, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, at any point in time, if you are potty trained, you should not be peeing your pants. And there's a misconception among lay people, but it's also there among physicians. The other misconception is that it's just one of those things. So there's nothing you can do about it.

And I think that this has like the so

People think that it's just a normal part of like aging as a woman or going through milestones as a woman. Men don't realize that postprostatectomy, that they are very likely to have incontinence for up to a year and erectile dysfunction. You say E D, all of a sudden men perk up, but like, you know, maybe just here, I don't know. But like the the the misconceptions about the pelvic floor, and it's become like so

I've had the opportunity to teach in Europe where they're so much more free about like nudity and their bodies. They're still prude about things below the belt, even though they'll like get naked in a treatment room for their chiropractor, you know? They still don't necessarily talk about things. And in the United States, we're like completely over sexualized and simultaneously prudes. Like it's just this weird mix where nobody wants to talk about.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (46:36.569)

if they're wearing a panty liner. And but then that that's like the information that I'm parsing of the woman who was divorced and is like, I I don't want to date, like I can't wear cute underwear, you know, like the and so when they realize that this is a thing that we can talk about, that must mean that this is a thing that we can do something about. And I think that both lay people and physicians have the misconception that this there's nothing to be done about this except for suck it up and deal with it.

And put a panty liner on until you get to the age where that doesn't work anymore, and then you wear depends, until that doesn't work anymore, and then you go in a nursing home. And that's bullshit. Like that's just such a projection of a human life that like the people who work in nursing homes don't want to be there. That's not like the place you want to end up. And so I think that there's a misconception that only women have pelvic floors. That is in lay people and that is in physicians. There's a misconception that pelvic floors for whatever reason stop working.

under certain circumstances? Like why have we accepted that parts of the body just stopped working after perfectly normal physiological events? All mammals give birth. So like why is that a situation? And I mean I don't know if kangaroos are incontinent because they they don't have toilets, you know? I'm just not I'm not really sure about like the rest of the Mammalian world, but the the incidence of

Women being incontinent now is so high. And a known underreported one in every four women has some amount of pelvic floor dysfunction. A 2018 poll of women 55 to 80 demonstrated that over half of them after 65 will have incontinence that they didn't tell their doctor about. Two-thirds of women who have incontinence do not tell their doctor about it. And it's because they don't think there's anything that can be done about it because the physicians don't think that there's anything that can be done.

Beau Beard (48:08.418)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (48:33.639)

And so I don't think there's any difference between the misconceptions in the lay person and the misconceptions in physicians. Now, when it comes to like the treatment room, I think that there's a an idea that only an internal pelvic PT can address the pelvic floor, which previously that like that wasn't even really a subset of PT. And now it's becoming more popular, which like that has the opportunity to do really wonderful things. It also has the opportunity to like not. And pelvic PT is doing what

Everyone else in healthcare is not doing right now, which is getting more myopic. So everyone else in healthcare is like, whole person, we should look at the entire picture. And pelvic PT is like below the belt. Like we're we're just gonna focus in and we're only gonna look at this part of the body. And I think that that is just such a disservice to their profession because they have the capacity to treat the whole person.

Beau Beard (49:08.941)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (49:29.341)

But their training that they're choosing to do because they want to help, because they know this is a problem, is making them myopic. And so I there is an another misconception among pelvic PTs, PTs, and chiropractors that internal work is necessary for pelvic floor function to be optimal. And I just don't agree because I so I actually in the state of North Carolina can do internal pelvic PT work. Excuse me, I can do internal pelvic work. I

Beau Beard (49:57.997)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (49:59.326)

I cannot say PT, I can say physiotherapy with my license. but I I can do internal trigger point work with my license in the state of North Carolina, and I have had training in how to do this, and I don't do it. We actually have a pelvic PT who rents space from us and she just comes here twice a month to see patients because I'm like, I the people that I know need internal pelvic floor work, I'm gonna send to you. and other than that, we take care of so much pelvic floor dysfunction.

Beau Beard (50:01.153)

Yeah. Same.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (50:28.317)

with breathing mechanics, with hip mechanics, with spinal mobility, and specifically with appropriate pressurization and with stop freaking kegling. So like there's just the the sucking in of the abdomen, the sucking into the pelvic floor just creates so much instability. And then that tension that persists gets put under stress of a sneeze or a cough or a laugh or a trampoline or a CrossFit workout.

Or now high rocks work out, whatever. Like they, the, the, the pelvic floor just cannot take it anymore and gives out. And then the response to that is tighten it all back up again and create more tension in the system, which has absolutely no stability. And so if we take a step back and we're like, okay, this isn't working. I wonder what might. It could be this. And like the it's it's super cool to realize how.

Much can be accomplished when we teach patients how to get out of their way when it comes to pelvic floor function. So also misconception that pelvic PT is the only so there's pelvic PT or there's surgery are like the only things. Pelvic floor shockwave is a maze balls. We don't actually do that in our office. We refer up the street, there's a really wonderful functional med primary care office, and they do pelvic floor shockwave.

Beau Beard (51:41.069)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (51:53.924)

My team does external shockwave. We do radial in all the places. We don't do vaginal or penile. We'll send them up the street. But just the like when if patients get to a kind of plateau level, it's not because they need surgery. They need their own stem cells and blood flow to come to the rescue and like create a little bit of a tissue change. Now, pelvic floor shockwave on its own does well. Pelvic floor shockwave with

Beau Beard (51:57.421)

Mm-hmm.

Beau Beard (52:10.871)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (52:24.275)

DNS-based exercises, holy shit. So, because what I explained to patients is that if so, we could go and we could signal to your pelvic floor, like, hey, we want a bunch of blood flow, we want to kind of turn over some cells here, and we want your stem cells to come in and like create repair, but pelvic floor dysfunction, same thing with diastasis of the ratus abdominis, same thing with an umbilical hernia. This is not an injury according to your brain.

Beau Beard (52:27.317)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (52:51.475)

So we have to teach those stem cells who are coming here because we've signaled to them, like, hey, leave the liver, leave the bone marrow, come to this area. We have to teach them what we want them to do. And what we want them to do is teach you how to be a human and how to move like humans move, instead of the way that you know, humans have enough hubris to think that we know better than our own internal blueprint that our creator gave us to move. And so we teach your body how it was meant to move and it

feels good when it moves like that. And then pelvic floor shockwave plus DNS is like just next level amazing.

Beau Beard (53:29.825)

We can tell that you're just a little bit passionate about it. the funniest line I ever heard was we were doing a DNS manual therapy class at Rich Holmes' house. It was just like everybody in there was DNS certified. And Robert Lardner was showing basically like a low bear position. And somebody asked him, like, is this like really specific for like or good for pelvic floor? I don't know if the question was exactly. And he just his little like Anglicanized South African, you know, soft

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (53:32.157)

I don't know what you're talking about. I hate the public floor.

Beau Beard (53:59.682)

He goes, it's funny that we think we need to just treat the pelvic floor when everyone has one. Like he was like, like, why are we part like you said? Like, I get the specialty, I I 100% get it. But he was just saying, like, it's so it is central, literally, to everything. And we sit here and talk about breathing and all this stuff. And then the question just struck him as funny because he's like, What are we doing? Yeah, it's involved. Yeah, it's speci I just love that sentiment. I think about that all the time when I have women or men.

That I'm working on, or they bring it up of like, hey, I'm doing this thing for this thing. And I'm like, well, what else are we doing? Right? Or do you want me to work with you on that? Is that gonna be this, you know, because we have a lot of people are going to a pelvic PT while they're coming to us. And, you know, maybe it's separate issues, maybe it plays in the same realm. So yeah, we kind of have to dance that line of like, you know, sometimes, yeah, it is needed. I would agree with you. I think it's the reverse of a lot of yeah. That aren't yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (54:50.373)

If they have internal trigger points, pelvic PT is fantastic. And if they don't, pelvic PT can actually be harmful. We're not entering an orifice that we don't need to be entering in a really vulnerable place.

Beau Beard (55:03.882)

And my

Beau Beard (55:07.519)

What's your feedback on this? So I have a lot of people that have been to, you know, the getting internal work because they're being told, you know, the muscles around the public floor need trigger point work. But we're talking, we're once a week, two months in. I'm like, dude, if I was working on a trigger point, at least from my my style of treatment, and I'm two months in, I'm either terrible. Right. I'm like, I'm terrible. My job or something else is

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (55:07.826)

Yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (55:27.751)

And that trigger point hasn't changed. Are you freaking kidding me?

Beau Beard (55:32.981)

If that trigger point is true, is there some pathologi you know or pathoanatomical thing causing that? And then I bring that up to him, not to try to call that person out, but like I would be calling myself out. So dear Lord, like let's let's put us under the same standard here. I mean, am I right or am I wrong on that? Or head of the right.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (55:48.978)

Am I right or am I right? Because the but the the so this is the other thing that kind of has happened to pelvic PTs, and legitimately, like I have very dear friends who are pelvic PTs. This is not like shit talking the the profession, but so many of them come out of school, like just look at us 15 years ago. You first start into practice, you're like, I'm gonna fix everything and I'm so great at my job. That's not what you sounded like, that's what I sounded like. but like

The the first year into practice you don't know shit. Like, thank God you know how to not hurt people.

But you don't actually really know what you're doing. And then orthopedic PT places put those people through like an APTA or Herman and Wallace course and spit them out as their pelvic PT person. They have no experience. They have no like rapport-building skills. Because your first two years in practice are you figuring out how to not be a dick.

Like you just have to figure out how to talk to people and then you can hone your communication skills, but you have to figure out how to legitimately have a conversation with someone and not be a weasel about it, but get them to pay you money to help them. Like I mean, it's just such a dance that you have to figure out in your first two years of practice, you suck at that. You'll turn Yes. So the so they're taking those people and putting them in charge of a pelvic PT department.

Beau Beard (57:10.167)

Yeah, thanks no thanks no one for teaching us that skill. Yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (57:23.399)

Which is just feeding them to the wolves. But now they have pelvic PT and they can market that and people will go there and they're going like three times a week for a month. That's an orthopedic PT schedule. That's not a pelvic PT schedule. So the pelvic PTs that I work with, and there are three in the entire triangle: Raleigh, Durham, and Chapel Hill, there are three pelvic PTs that I refer to. And they will see a patient and

at most see a patient in a week, but most of the time time see them in two to four weeks. And give them things that they can do on their own at home if they need to. But in general, keep their hands out of vaginas and anuses because we don't need to be going internal that frequently. You're actually irritating tissues and re-provoking trigger points. And as we know, trigger points show up in the body, but they live in the brain. So if you haven't changed the signal for why that trigger point is going back to the obturator internus,

Then of course it's gonna show back up. You have to change the signal coming from the brain. Is that because of stability? Is that because of past trauma? Is that because of scar tissue? Okay, well, that's your job as a healthcare practitioner to figure it out by listening to the patient. But like you should not be going back into vagina every week for two months. Yikes.

Beau Beard (58:39.553)

With you on that. What are what are some non-typical signs of pelvic for dysfunction? Right. I'm not saying, we all know the typical ones because obviously there's a a big swath of, you know, practitioners and lay people that don't. But what are some uncommon ones that maybe if you're a practitioner, somebody listening to this guy or a girl, you might be like, ooh, I've dealt with that, or I know somebody deals with that as a practitioner. Anything come to mind or like, ooh, these are outliers of symptoms.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (59:03.891)

I think people completely underestimate hemorrhoids as being a pelvic floor dysfunction. so hemorrhoids themselves are actually just normal blood vessels. We refer to inflamed hemorrhoids as hemorrhoids, like it's a little confusing. but they like I personally experien I mean like let's talk about my butthole for a minute, because that's a good podcast topic. but during my second pregnancy, I had this left SI joint pain that I could not shake.

And I had a hemorrhoid thrombose. 10 out of 10 do not recommend. But I I was doing pelvic PT, orthopedic PT, chiropractic care, and all of my own self-treatments. And I could not shake this left S eye joint pain. And I had not had left S eye joint pain since I started seeing a chiropractor when I was fifteen. And I was like, what is happening? But I

I ended up getting sclerotherapy for the hemorrhoid, which that actually led to some future pelvic flow dysfunction things. Tangent that I won't go on, I swear to God, look at me go. but when I got the hemorrhoid treated, my left S eye joint pain immediately went away. And my baby actually, which my baby is about to turn ten, but he actually went breach and I was planning a home birth and in North Carolina you cannot have a breach home birth. and so I was like, This baby needs to go head down and I'm thirty weeks pregnant.

And I think that baby is actually like trying to get out of the area of inflammation because like everything it was like painful. So obviously there's like some localized inflammation there. And I got the hemorrhoid treated, my SI joint pain went away, and my baby went head down. And I like I was having musculoskeletal appearing, low back pain, as a result of what basically a leak in the canister, right? There's the abdominal wall, the diaphragm, the pelvic floor.

a leak anywhere in that canister or a dent anywhere in that canister, and you're going to experience some amount of symptoms of instability. So a thrombost hemorrhoid is obviously a leak in the canister. And I wasn't having any incontinence. And all I had was like localized hemorrhoidal, that's not a word, pain. But then I was having left S eye joint pain. And as soon as I got the hemorrhoid treated, the left S eye joint pain went away. And so I think

Beau Beard (01:01:13.613)

Mm-hmm.

Beau Beard (01:01:20.725)

We'll make it one. Yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:01:27.591)

very very frequently and those are things that people typically do not talk to their chiropractor about like no one's mentioning their hemorrhoids right but also so like not a thrombosed hemorrhoid but like there are some incredible homeopathic things for but hem calm by boy run just write this down if you're listening to this podcast just in case you ever get a hemorrhage because they work so so so well there's ointment there's tablets and there's actually suppositories which pro tip insert at night

Beau Beard (01:01:32.055)

Yeah. Right.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:01:56.51)

Don't go live your life with a hemorrhoid suppository. I'm just offering helpful suggestions, Bo. But the like the I I think that that's probably one of the most common types of pelvic floor dysfunction that never even gets talked about when we're having the conversation about pelvic floor dysfunction. And so, like for me, that's really important because I think that one of the funniest things that I ever saw on a it was a like Facebook mom's group.

Beau Beard (01:02:03.606)

Yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:02:25.787)

a number of years ago and somebody was asking for help with hemorrhoids, which actually kinesio tape, like if you do a whale tail, like coccyx up past the sacrum, so helpful for hemorrhoids, in case you were wondering. You can also do the like spider like four going up. Anyway, people were asking like help for hemorrhoids. And somebody commented like the things that they did and her her statement was, I mean, I don't have a future in porn.

Beau Beard (01:02:34.241)

Mm-hmm.

Beau Beard (01:02:39.341)

Yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:02:55.315)

But I'm otherwise fine.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:02:59.805)

Well that's great. Anyway I precisely. Your hemorrhoids don't bother you, but your asshole looks weird, cool. But I think that that's like a very overlooked type of pelvic floor dysfunction. Yeah.

Beau Beard (01:03:00.683)

You got everything I needed to know. Yep.

Beau Beard (01:03:13.409)

No, like that. Yeah, I like that because again, both sexes, you I don't know what the rates are of occurrence in there. I always highlight to men, you know, the rate of occurrence of things like diastasis, right? We think it's predominantly women and especially as we age up, it's not really the case. And then there's not great I would say causal studies on, you know, diastasis and stenosis. You can get correlative stuff. And obviously I think we all Yeah, and we always tell people, I mean, I see that and I'm like, ooh, I

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:03:24.252)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:03:37.085)

But correlative for freaking sure.

Beau Beard (01:03:42.898)

You're either heading there or a lot of times they're already there, right? They're a stenotic patient. They try to lift up and it's like, yeah. yeah. So I think that kind of plays in there for guys. A lot of them be I never knew what that thing was. And you're like, Well, that's what it's called, but who cares what it's called? Let's try to, you know, work on the things around there. so I really like that because again, even practitioners hearing that, even the taping stuff, right? I didn't know that. And I mean, my wife, I mean, she would, you know, I don't think she would mind, but like,

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:03:45.865)

Mm-hmm.

there's a worm coming out of your belly.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:03:59.326)

Right.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:04:05.373)

Yeah. Yeah.

Beau Beard (01:04:10.807)

Dealt with that through pregnancy, it was probably one of the most irritating things, right? It's just like this constant irritation, but also worried her. She's like, what does this mean in terms of like what's going wrong that's gonna follow me after the pregnancy? So it wasn't just, this is a pregnancy thing, like, ee, you know, maybe that's the healthcare mind running amok, but yeah, so I just like those little tidbits. I'm gonna hit you with some lightning round stuff. We'll we'll see how lightning it round it is with Lindsay.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:04:14.621)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:04:35.571)

Let's go. god, it's really bad. So bad. S brevity is not my forte.

Beau Beard (01:04:40.333)

Well we have probably danced around it, but what is your clinical superpower?

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:04:47.227)

Hmm. Actually I would say my clinical superpower is perpetual curiosity.

Beau Beard (01:04:53.069)

Hmm, like it. All right. what is one thing that you long held to be doesn't have to be in the clinical realm. You can take this wherever you want. what is one thing you let or long held to be true that you've completely about faced on?

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:05:09.801)

I you were gonna ask me this too. But I really like to live in the moment, so I didn't wanna like prepare anything, which some might call

Beau Beard (01:05:17.117)

She just whips out this Christmas list of possible answers like but yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:05:22.227)

What I was thinking. so I wouldn't say that I have completely done a an about face, but I do think that I presented a lot more things as pathoanatomical than work. And I j like Annie O'Connor is such a fantastic human. Like I feel so grateful for her. And also, like I got to teach with her a couple of weeks ago. And so that just kind of like like I read World of Hurt.

years ago and was like, okay, cool, got it. You know, like absorb it, but then like stumbled my way through conversations to hear her teach it so eloquently and like have just more nuggets that I could immediately turn around and hand to a patient. I had a patient who came in a week after I taught with Annie saying, I was doing some research and I actually think that I have central sensitization. And I was like, let's go like it was just such a cool moment. And then to also realize that patient had absorbed

central sensitivity as a diagnosis. And I was like, just so you know, this isn't now what you have. Like we have to step out of that mindset. but I think that I really did spend a lot of my early years talking about pathoanatomical pain. And like there's there's great success there in end-range movement and in like alleviating joint restrictions and

Beau Beard (01:06:39.117)

Mm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:06:49.607)

Helping trigger points to release and moving fascia. But like the the number of times that I've seen patients who they get out of a relationship and all of a sudden that pain that they had in their hip is gone. Like I just, there are so many things that I'm like, that was never a musculoskeletal thing. I'm so glad that I have tools to help you with this non musculoskeletal pain that until we get rid of that.

Issue in your life that is causing this kind of emotional response. I'm glad that I have those tools. But I think I completely explained pain. And I mean like I w I was reading Butler and Mosley when I was in school. Like I knew this stuff. And still, the way that I like when I came out of a Mackenzie courses, like if you have any radiating pain, like that's obviously a disc, and here's the picture of it. And I still draw disc pictures all the time. But like there are

So many instances where somebody has radiating pain, and like my spidey sense is like, don't even bother with extensions right now. Like this is going in a different direction. And like the number of people who have radiating pain when they have massive life changes, I'm like, that's related. And so I think, and I haven't done it about face because there are sometimes like pathoanatomical things happening. But I think the large majority of my practice is not made up of them.

Beau Beard (01:08:13.419)

That's why it literally haunts me. Like like no, I'm not I'm not I bet once a year I think I should just quit because we have no clue what's causing anything. Like literally I'm

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:08:15.626)

Right.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:08:22.929)

Mm-hmm. Well, and that's what I'm saying though. It doesn't make me want to quit. It makes me so grateful that I have tools, both like manual tools, right? Because if if you hit your elbow and you rub it, that feels better, right? So like I can do that for you. I can rub your elbow and I can make that feel better. But I also have other skills like listening to you. And and I'm and patients will frequently like apologize for dumping things on me, but I think like their nervous system like this lady can hate. She can handle it.

And I tell like I have a skill of holding a bucket. So like if your friend is puking and you and I tell this to students because I think this is so, so, so important. We have to dump the bucket at the end of the day. And so many people don't. I think this is why burnout rates are high. And I think it it's significantly higher for females in chiropractic than it is for males. But it's high in general, right? Like millennials, we've just I don't know. But the we

If somebody is throwing up in a bucket and you're holding the bucket, do you just like carry that around all day? Like let them throw up in the bucket and then go dump it in the toilet and clean it out. And then you have a fresh bucket in case anyone else pukes. Like, and so I just let patients know, like, I'm I'm happy to hold a bucket while you puke and like get all this stuff out. That's totally fine. Like, you know, I saw a woman this morning who had a flare-up of low back pain while her daughter is five weeks early and they're planning to take the baby early and

She's super nervous about that and she's like, I'm sorry, I just and I was like, I'll hold your bucket. Get it all out. Because like your back is gonna feel better after you do. And like, this is not a musculoskeletal tool. I'm just have an empty fake bucket that I'm holding for you to purge into.

Beau Beard (01:10:05.601)

There's a whole no whole course coming from Lindsay on that. yeah, one that'll really kick you in the teeth is when a patient doesn't report a multi level lumbar fusion, you do lumbar extensions, all the radiating pain goes away, and then you're like, What's the supposed mechanism of this stuff that we're doing? Because that doesn't move, which I have my own thoughts. We talked to Shacklock about that, but I was like, We literally which me being an idiot too, like, you know, we were palpating and stuff. And then it took me just lifting the shirt up second visit me like,

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:10:35.539)

There's a big scar here. What

Beau Beard (01:10:35.667)

What what's that from? And then they're Yeah, my pain's better. I was like, I and then I literally was like, I have no clue how I'm hiding great. So like that stuff again, it it does I mean, that's why I research stuff as much as I do, 'cause I'm like, well, if that doesn't work, what is going on? And I think that's a it's a s that is a superpower in itself, like you said, curiosity and kind of just always digging, which is also gonna keep in the game, but it helps your patience.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:10:41.255)

I quit. It's all over.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:10:57.449)

Well, it also just makes my life more interesting. Like I you have to be a little bit selfish, period. Because if you're living on behalf of other people, like I mean, I experienced this. If you're living on behalf of other people, you're not living. So like this has to be interesting to me in order for me to show up and like fully be present with my patients. This has to be interesting. And it's how could it not be interesting when people come in here with their stories and they're like

different things and you're like multi level lumbar fusion, but you respond to extensions, that doesn't even make sense. Like this is so wild. And I'm curious about how that works. And I think if you just like s I I don't know, Einstein's quote of like you can either see everything as a miracle or nothing. And then you'll be right. But like I just I I find that stuff so interesting and I want to kind of figure out a little bit more. And then when I figure it out then I want to teach somebody about it, you know, and that makes the day to day practice life

Very interesting for me.

Beau Beard (01:11:56.908)

I'm on the quest to figure out why trigger points happen. I tried to get Jay Shaw and Quentin are on and they both, for different reasons, wouldn't couldn't come on, I would say. yeah, that's like my one of my goals. If we're supposed to be paying attention to these stupid little muscle things so much, like what the what the hell's going on? I don't know if I'll ever accomplish it, but it like it I was talking with a guy the other day, his wife is in a MD PhD program and she hasn't decided on a doctoral thesis yet. And he goes, Could she help you figure that out? I go, if she can, please, God.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:12:23.399)

Yes.

Yes, I

Beau Beard (01:12:26.319)

so we might be doing that with her, but that again, I that's the fun part for me. I love treating patients, but I every patient is for me, like you said, it's a little you hate to say guinea pig, but I tell patients that now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I feel like I'm confident enough my skills now, where is year one, it was for sure happening, but I'm like keeping that like secret under the rug. Now I'm like, Hey, I think this is what's going on, and I usually would do this.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:12:37.609)

Beta tester, Bo, beta tester.

Beau Beard (01:12:52.791)

But I'm not today because we don't have to. And we can always do that. And they'll be like, okay. all right, let's flip the question. what is something you're like, yep, this is the way it is, but there's no peer reviewed literature out there, there's no study, there's no book that says that's the way it is.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:12:58.097)

Okay. Sure. I don't know.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:13:11.037)

DNS. And it's not fair to say there's no research.

Beau Beard (01:13:14.541)

True. But I get what you're saying. Yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:13:17.117)

There I just think

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:13:24.529)

In the 15 years I've been in practice, that is the thing that I've just gotten better at. Like I haven't gone back on any of the things that I was teaching in my first year of practice, that I was demonstrating to patients that I was putting patients through. I I think that there is nothing that you can do to change your health for better or for worse, more effectively, than changing the way that you breathe.

Beau Beard (01:13:52.43)

Do you think, okay, so let's dive into this a tiny bit? Anybody well, yeah, but now you're talking about DNS. So let's just nerd out for a second before we jump off here. So we a lot of people that aren't extremely familiar with DNS would say, it's baby exercises and breathing. So they would say the breathing is a big subset. I would agree. You and I both know that is just a subset, right? Yeah, maybe a central premise. So do you think you could take

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:13:56.197)

You said lightning round, you're full of shit. Let's go.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:14:14.11)

Yes.

Beau Beard (01:14:18.251)

breathing out of DNS or do you need all the other principles surrounding it to still have that big of an effect?

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:14:25.129)

So yes and I think that I think that the the way that I look at the DNS, I'm not a weather person, the way that I look at the DNS posters is what the diaphragm is doing. And so what's happening in three-month prone, yeah, we can talk about shoulder stability and we can talk about scapular positioning and we can talk about the humeral angle and we can talk about the puntum fixum. What's happening is the diaphragm is beginning to operate.

Beau Beard (01:14:39.917)

Hm. Okay.

Beau Beard (01:14:54.861)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:14:55.559)

And then we're gonna start to get side loading of the diaphragm. And then we're gonna start to get differentiation of the diaphragm. And so I kind of look at that from a breathing perspective, which I think is maybe different than how I and I'm like, thank God I started studying DNS in two thousand nine because like now I I know it, I know it deeply. And Ben Stevens was talking about it was just one of his reels that he made on Instagram, but

Beau Beard (01:15:16.268)

Yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:15:25.661)

Like you have to spend like $10,000 and multiple classes before you actually understand DNS. And that's so true. I could not see myself practicing without it. But like there are so many people who blast through like A, B, and C as a student. I this is ridiculous, but I don't think that you should be able to take DNS C until you can explain to someone in your parents' generation.

Beau Beard (01:15:38.733)

Yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:15:54.228)

How to breathe and pressurize. Do not pass go, do not collect $200, do not go to DNSC because you don't understand shit yet. Because you you conceptually get it, but it doesn't yet live in the muscle. And your ability to convey that this isn't just baby exercises, but this is actually the blueprint of human movement that you either evolved or were created for, to be able to ambulate about the world as a human and be superhuman.

Beau Beard (01:15:55.799)

Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:16:24.455)

The if you can't do that, you don't need to be taking more classes. You need experiential knowledge of applying this to people and failing at figuring out how to get somebody to get their freaking scapula against their thoracic spine in such a way that like their rib cage is no longer a day's trip away. Like the so I I look at the poster as actually like breathing mechanics the whole year. Point A. Point B

Wim Hof. If you have ever had a Wim Hof breathing experience, and especially so like I've done a couple of Wim Hof workshops, we've posted them here and Ben Pelton has has done those, and it's they're just fantastic. Getting in a room full of people and hyperventilating is amazing. And then Ashley, one of our rehab CAs, is a breathwork practitioner, and so we'll host events here. To be in a room with other people and breathe on purpose and actually like have a psychedelic experience, like

We're changing things with breath work separately and also together because DNS didn't used to talk about nasal breathing at all, but now is. Thank you, Rich. Love you. the the aspect of nasal breathing will change someone's health astronomically. So, yes, breath itself.

Beau Beard (01:17:32.296)

Mm-hmm. Thanks, Rich.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:17:49.926)

Is probably one of the things that we can do that changes health more than anything else in the world. Breath is the foundation of the start point for human movement. And to quote Levitt, if breathing is not normalized, no other movement pattern can be. And so I really do think, and I stand firmly in that it's not just the exercises and it's also not separate from them, but.

Breath is the thing that you can do. In this moment, you could change your health based on your breathing patterns. And then realizing that twelve to sixteen times every minute, every human has that opportunity. Like, what an incredible blessing that this thing that you were before not paying attention to, and now all of a sudden you're paying attention to. I tell patients that all the time. What we just taught you today, because most of my patients on their first day get breathing as their exercise. If they if they have pathoanatomical breathing,

ridicular symptoms and they're going home with repetitive movements. But most people get breathing as their first exercise. And I tell them, if I never see you again, if you give up on this treatment plan, but you do this, you will be healthier because of it, because you will have better oxygenation. And so if you get that, you will be healthier and I will sleep better at night knowing that you're better because you met me. So I hope that I see you tomorrow for the plan follow-up that we have.

Beau Beard (01:19:05.164)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:19:16.349)

But if I don't and you do this, you already felt the difference. Cause I never let anyone leave with breathing as an exercise unless they like unless it lives in the muscle, right? Like unless they actually have an experience that changed. So and that's where like that's where trigger points are valuable to me is just the audit of like you feel this, breathe three times. Do you see how that's not ticklish anymore? Did you get less ticklish than you were five minutes ago? No. Okay, hyperventilate up into your chest, breathe through your mouth. You feel how you're ticklish again?

And then they're like, what sort of witchcraft does this lady do? And I'm like, none, none at all. No witchcraft.

Beau Beard (01:19:49.334)

Not yet. So I'll tell a personal story on this note that kinda cause I again g started school in two thousand nine. DNS was kind of being thrown in MPI, a lot of reflex STEM, and I was like, What is going on? I thought we were adjusting people. Now people are crawling around while three people touch and yeah, it just got real weird real fast. But

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:20:06.415)

I I feel so bad for people who d who don't get reflex stimulation because it's so good.

Beau Beard (01:20:09.431)

my God. It and another thing I'll applaud Rich for you. You he's on the evangelical pathway to get that back into the curriculum. but I was at Brett Winchester's clinic and he was working on me because I had torn my labrum and I didn't want to surgery. And he pulled I pulled my shirt up and I have these broken blood vessels across kind of the like mid aspect of my rib cage. And he goes, did you have like GERD, you know, growing up? I was like, Yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:20:16.146)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:20:23.443)

Who? I'm just kidding.

Beau Beard (01:20:38.613)

How'd you know that? And he goes, Well, you probably, you know, a lot of diaphragm dysfunction will lead to that, you know, different things. So I commotion a cordis, I the umbilical cord wrapped around my neck. So I I said in my book, like the first movement is the first breath, right? The breath before you cry. Well, I didn't have that. And then there's a lot of research on diaphragm dysfunction with that, even though that's a temporary thing, right? As you come through the birth canal and the core gets wrapped around your neck. And it like, I was just like,

Who the fuck is this dude? That's like, hey, based on these little vessels that I was always like, why do I have these? He's like, you had GERD, you probably had diaphragm dysfunction. I could link that back to this. And people like, that's some crazy Cairo talk. It's like literally everything he said I would have, I had, plus the stuff we were working. Like, it was just such a moment of like, it wasn't the BS E Cairo, like, did you fall out of tree when you were two? And that's why you, you know, your C1's out. I was like, huh.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:21:05.993)

Right.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:21:27.505)

Right.

Beau Beard (01:21:30.581)

What's up with this? And like it just the further I went, the further I was like, okay. And not just for me, but like you said, the little parlor tricks that seem like, see, the ticklishness is gone or the trigger point diminishes and like how profound the intervention of something we already do, which it's always a fun thing to play the game with. You know, now people used to be like, well, if my breathing's messed up, how'd it get messed And I year one, I'm like, well, DNS would say, and now I'm like, does it matter? Like if we change and you feel better and things change, like, cool, I don't know.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:21:57.138)

I don't know.

Beau Beard (01:22:00.152)

Like I have no clue. I could give you some theories. Yeah, I think you need those little parlor tricks. And I think a huge take home for students or new docs is what Lindsay said of you need, I mean, I had a student when they were shadowing in here go, you know, how'd you figure all this stuff out? Like, did you, you know, you did all these seminars and stuff. I go, I didn't take DNS say until I was in practice. Like it was in Washington, DC, my first year because Brett told me not to. So I had reasons. He was like, just let me teach you a bunch and like slow. He was like, go slow.

Man, I'm I'm so glad I took that advice. Like I needed more time to kind of cook, marinate. And I'm gonna be honest with you, even when I went to DNS D in Prague with you, there were things there that I was like, I feel like such a freaking immature rookie. And we're sitting there getting certified. And I'm like, I'm an idiot. Like, yeah. And I think you're supposed to feel like that during that experience a little bit. But yeah, it's just such an eye opening, like,

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:22:47.581)

Do I know anything? Yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:22:55.557)

Okay, I just really quick wanna share. So we had a group chat and Bo described the DNS tests more effectively than anyone else has in the history of DNS testing, which is here's a picture of a six month old baby. Tell me everything you know about them.

Beau Beard (01:23:12.107)

Yeah. I was like, hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:23:13.607)

That's basically the DNS test and you're like, Wow, I'm a freaking idiot. I have no idea. I don't know. Diaphragm.

Beau Beard (01:23:20.205)

But do you the one of the things there was when we did the final QA and I think you asked the question. You were like, what is one of your pet peeves? Or I know if it was misconceptions of across the pond of like something we get wrong. They all, all the prog PTs looked around at each other like, hmm, hmm hmm. And I can't remember who answered, but they were like, You guys teach people IAP. And they're like, We expect that as a like a

optimal functioning like parameter if we're doing things right in terms of joint centration, breathing position. We're like, and we're all like, what? I mean, we literally all of us like, no, what no, no, no. And you know, peop different people have different opinions, but we're all like, that's not what we're taught. Now, was it not what we were taught or it's how we picked it up? I don't know. But I was like, I think all of us, me at least, I was like, hmm. And I I mean I've thought about that a lot.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:23:54.249)

That it's an audit for them, not.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:24:13.672)

Hmm. Yeah?

Beau Beard (01:24:15.467)

Since that time. So again, just there's levels to the you know, the game, I guess. Yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:24:19.613)

Yeah. I I I I really think that the

the responsiveness of a patient depends upon like the level of stress that they've been under and like their history and experience and all things like that. So I think that they think that we over teach breathing and focus more on that and then we teach IAP. Just being in Prague, they're a more relaxed society than we are. And I think that they're I mean, I don't know what it's like to grow up as a little girl in the Czech Republic if like

the messaging of suck in is like always there the way that it is here. And it's it's like in your face, on billboards, and it's like on TV and in movies and your mom says it and your grandma says it and your best friends say it. And then just like the kind of idea for little girls sucking in is perpetuated. So then when they get to be 40 and they've been doing that since they were 10, I I understand that I should be able to do

just to centrate your hip joint and see what happens. But like those patterns are ingrained so deeply that I think they actually need to be sussed out a little bit. I mean, I think we probably I mean, whatever, I'm just a tiny little baby DNS practitioner trying to figure out what the hell I'm doing in the world. But like I I think we in the United States end up having to do more like we have to go in through the cortex.

Beau Beard (01:25:54.189)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:25:55.336)

And I think that they might be able to just like touch below the cortex because and in ways that we can't hear because people are way more stressed out. Like it's just and all I mean, like I cannot overstate how happy I was to see weeds when we were in Prague outside the hospital. Like they're just not b like.

Beau Beard (01:26:08.161)

I agree.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:26:22.597)

I swear I won't take this too far, but like glyphosate was patent patented as an antibiotic. Like we are breathing antibiotics all day, every single day. That is so stressful for our immune systems that like the way that we stabilize is just not nearly as important because.

so many other things are like negatively affecting us at a cellular level. So I I think we just have a little bit more of an uphill battle. Now, granted, when you walk outside, there's a bunch people smoking right outside the hospital too. So like they're, you know, win some and lose some. And I'm not like the grass is greener anywhere that I'm not. Obviously I really love the grass where I am and that's why I touch it every day. But the like the the way that we have to like access health through like

Beau Beard (01:26:39.959)

The organism. Yeah. Yep.

Beau Beard (01:26:49.741)

Yeah.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:27:07.695)

every different avenue other than just like head on because there's so many other things that we're competing with, you know, I think that it's an opportunity for us here in the States.

Beau Beard (01:27:17.717)

I agree. The organism is definitely l we know less healthy here, but then asking the questions of why why is the organism less healthy and not just leaning on the standard things, right? it's your diet. it's yeah, those those are true, but like

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:27:32.937)

What about the soil depletion? Because even if you're eating like a paleo diet, okay, well the soil doesn't have nearly the amount of nutrients that it did fifty years ago. And then real quick, do you want to talk about prog dogs or no?

Beau Beard (01:27:37.301)

Yeah. Yeah.

Beau Beard (01:27:45.752)

We'll get there. We'll get there. all right. Well, before we hop off, any last like anything you find yourself telling patients all the time, you find yourself telling students all the time, or any last words of wisdom before we jump off here.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:28:00.594)

On and last thing that it's obviously not gonna be quick. I will say this. One of the things that I think is probably the most impactful is the way that I encourage patients slash nag in their verbiage. So if they have future speak about pain, I will stop it immediately in their tracks and I will ask them to tell me what's true in a way that's different. So

If a patient says, when I wake up in the morning, my low back hurts, I will say, when you wake up in the morning. And they're like, Yes. So tomorrow when you wake up in the morning, your low back is gonna hurt. And like I I'm not so I I will jokingly go into it because it gets annoying as shit. And I know that I'm being annoying. And I also know that I because I've seen it, I am changing people's lives with the way that they talk to themselves about pain that they're experiencing. So a couple of things that I nip right in the bud are.

Beau Beard (01:28:38.135)

That's

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:28:57.905)

If they speak about future pain, I don't want you to take a shortcut to a place you don't want to go. You don't want to have pain, then you need to create a new neural pathway for a future that exists without it. And if you want to live the same story that you have lived, then give your brain a shortcut there and say, when I wake up in the morning, this hurts. Every single time that I reach behind me, my shoulder pinches. Okay, then every single time you reach behind you, your brain just heard what to do, and you are not your brain.

So, you know, some of these AI models they'll they'll talk about like the hallucinations and the reason why the AI is sucking is because garbage in, garbage out. So like coders and and computer programmers talk about garbage in, garbage out. It's the same thing for our brains. If you put garbage information in, you'll get garbage information out. So if you say what you will experience, then you will most likely put that into play. And so I

And I never want patients to feel like I'm gaslighting them. I know that every single day for the past three months, when you woke up, your low back hurt. And I don't know if that's gonna happen tomorrow. And I don't think you want that to happen tomorrow. So I'm inviting you to no longer talk about pain in the future tense. And it grammatically gets a little weird. And I was an English major, so I'm already an asshole. Like the the the

way that we formulate how we discuss pain is so important because the brain is absorbing that information and then putting and giving outputs as a result of it. The other thing is that once you change the external language, the internal language can change too. And I've just seen it happen so many times where the patient is talking about pain that they do experience and I just keep interrupting them kind of like a real jerk.

And I say, I'm really not trying to be rude right now. I just need you to be radically honest. And if you don't know tomorrow's lottery numbers, then you don't know what tomorrow experience for your body is gonna be. If you do know tomorrow's lottery numbers, please tell them to me. But like if that's not the level that you're at, then I don't think that you need to be predicting future pain. So I there's an art to this that like I have been working on. I I think the first blog that I wrote about this was in

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:31:20.317)

2019, maybe. I just kept hearing patients talk about pain that they will have. And I was like, Will you? It's is it possible that you won't have pain tomorrow? And some patients are like, no. I'm like, okay. Do you want to live in a world where it is possible that you won't have pain tomorrow? And they usually say yes to that. And I'm like, okay, then we have to create that. And this isn't like manifestation talk. I swear I'm not doing that. I'm literally just talking about.

Taking a step back from what the brain is putting out into the world and being intentional about the language that we choose to use surrounding pain. And so I am also also cautious about the way that I talk about pain that a patient is experiencing instead of your pain. Because if you own something, you're unlikely to want to get rid of it. So that's why I don't own their exercises. I want them to own their exercises if they want to. If they don't want to own their exercises, then they can pay me more money. Fine, I'll do more work. But if

Beau Beard (01:32:04.877)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:32:19.333)

If you own your pain, and that's part of you, right? Like that's kind of the initial battle that I was having when I was diagnosed with autoimmunity, like my autoimmune condition. Ew, I didn't want that. So the autoimmune conditions that I was diagnosed with. It's a hell of a lot more of a mouthful, but that was so important to me that I separate this is not a thing that I own and it is not part of me. And I'm gonna figure out how to work with this in such a way that it is no longer a diagnosis that I carry, and it is not. So

Beau Beard (01:32:41.697)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:32:49.065)

Cool. Anyway, that is a nugget that I think whenever I have shadows or interns that they're like, that that's that's cool. Like, yeah, it actually is. And I I don't like I didn't learn it anywhere. I just kind of started picking up on it and realizing how frequently pay especially chronic pain patients, you know, they've they've lived a life of being in pain. They would like a life that isn't in pain, but their brain will give them what they've asked for. So

Beau Beard (01:32:57.815)

I think

Beau Beard (01:33:14.763)

I think what we're finding is your real superpower is you become people's conscience. So what we here's a little, here's a little maybe kitschy marketing thing. So we have one of those buttons that you can record something. what was it? The god, what was a commercial? The Geico button, right? You can record whatever. Yeah, you need one of those that's just like, do you are you going to wake up in pain? And then they just hit that and you just

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:33:19.891)

Ha ha ha.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:33:35.016)

The easy button.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:33:39.817)

Will you?

Beau Beard (01:33:43.362)

That's what they get in set home exercise. And you're we'll get to the exercises. Let's reframe first. Yeah. no, I love it. And that's yeah, we could go, you know, you could take that quantum physics, all that stuff. Doctor Strange multiverse, are you gonna live this life or that? But yes, we will create a portal for the exit here for this podcast as well. But it's all true. I mean, you could somebody could spin this into ooh, that's you know, woo woo stuff.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:33:46.653)

We'll get to the exercises. What you're gonna do now is change the way you talk to yourself.

Beau Beard (01:34:12.953)

I would say at this point in my career, the how I'm picking up the language that they're using, how they're saying things, how I reflect that back at them is and I mean, even if we look at placebo research, it's over 80% of what I'm doing. And then I think the better I am at being aware of what I'm doing, right? I'm I feel like I'm pretty damn good at picking up subtleties and subconscious things that people are doing. I mean, I've studied that a lot, but it's really me.

Like I I'm still an idiot, you know, talking to my wife, or I catch myself tripping over things or not taking a pause and having some emotional just kind of outburst, even though I'm forty-two, I act like I'm too. Yeah, see, and there's there we go. Not yet. I need to. yeah, it's just that is the hurdle for me. It's can I do what I

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:34:49.715)

You catch yourself or you've caught yourself.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:35:01.189)

It is or it has been. You see how much of a dick I am, but it's so important.

Beau Beard (01:35:04.949)

I know. Yeah. And you're getting after a point though. If I keep working on this, maybe it won't be. And but I think I would never stop working on it. Will I ever stop learning about DNS? Will I ever stop learning about no? And I'm not diminishing those things. What I'm saying is, and this is part of art of assessment. So here's my commercial. That whole course is built. If you I only knew basically how to adjust the big three in ART when I got to school, some taping. That was basically it, maybe some other stuff that Brad taught me. Breathing.

I feel like I was doing okay. I also probably didn't have a good radar for how bad I was. But then I go along and I'm like, I could have those remedial skills, you know, from a technical standpoint and probably be world class. And people are world class because they live in the realm of like great self-awareness, being aware of how they interact with people, and they just like blow people's minds. And then we would look at what they're doing, and we would laugh or scoff as like, look at your remedial.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:35:39.364)

Ha ha

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:36:00.905)

Mm-hmm.

Beau Beard (01:36:04.363)

Hands on, you're talking about ART. I so I'll call myself out on that of like, I think I was largely wrong. And that's what I have to watch on social media when I see something and I see somebody in a minute snippet explaining something like I have no clue with the context, what their interaction with the patient was, and they may be trying to explain a technical thing. And that might be wildly wrong, but does it really matter that much? I don't know. I I honestly don't know.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:36:28.381)

Right. Neither do I. There's just so much that I don't know. I've yeah. Perpetual curiosity.

Beau Beard (01:36:30.263)

That's a journey. But that's the journey we're on.

We definitely needed okay, so future. So we just have a whole season coming up with Lindsay. dream interpretation, language, grammar. We got we got a bunch of stuff. Prog dogs, we got a bunch of stuff to talk about. We'll get there. well, thank you so much for taking time out of your day to do this. And anybody that hasn't read your book.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:36:41.225)

Season of podcasts.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:36:48.401)

Yeah. Prog dogs.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:36:55.229)

Yeah, thank you.

Beau Beard (01:36:58.937)

that hasn't taken a course with you, even if you have, you could go buy the book again. You could gift it to somebody, go take another course with you, but you should do those things. We'll link to all the things that Lindsay's involved with, which is a plethora. And yeah, just thanks again for doing it. Really appreciate it. Thanks.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:37:04.458)

what a great idea.

Lindsay Mumma, DC, DNSP (01:37:09.927)

Yeah, appreciate you. Great convo.