Michael O'Neal - Forest for the Trees

Summary

In this conversation, Dr. Beau and Michael O'Neal explore Michael's journey into the health and fitness world, discussing his personal experiences with injuries and the search for effective healing methods. They delve into the limitations of mainstream institutional approaches to health, emphasizing the importance of user experience and alternative methods. The discussion also touches on the cultural movement deficiency in society and the need for training, as well as Michael's motivations for writing his book to enhance his credibility and provide a resource for clients. In this conversation, Michael O'Neal discusses the importance of establishing authority in the health and wellness industry, the shift towards alternative health solutions, and the need for a systems-based approach rather than a goal-oriented one. He emphasizes the significance of understanding the market's demand for alternatives, the interplay between mental and physical health, and the evolving landscape of health practices. The discussion also touches on the limitations of traditional evidence-based practices and the potential of a resonance model for better outcomes. Additionally, the conversation explores intriguing topics such as simulation theory and the role of probabilities in decision-making.

Transccript

Dr. Beau (06:51.876)

Thank

Dr. Beau (07:31.14)

What's going on, man?

Dr. Beau (07:35.406)

Can you hear me?

Dr. Beau (07:44.42)

Hello?

Can you hear me?

Dr. Beau (07:55.534)

Can't hear you, Michael, if you can hear me.

Dr. Beau (08:08.138)

If you're, I see that you're trying to connect to Yeti, if you can hear me, is it USB connected?

Dr. Beau (08:50.734)

Nothing yet. And I'm not seeing any like noise feedback, so it's not picking the mic up at all, however it's connected.

Michael O'Neal (09:03.666)

There we go. Okay. Excellent.

Dr. Beau (09:03.694)

There you go. Whatever you just heard.

What's up, man?

Michael O'Neal (09:09.535)

Midday gap. Just gym in the morning, home in the afternoon, gym in the evening.

Dr. Beau (09:16.505)

Yeah.

Yeah. What, what time is your next client or a class? Okay.

Michael O'Neal (09:20.467)

That's, well, I, five. Go back at five, yes. I have a pretty decent chunk.

Dr. Beau (09:29.378)

Yeah, well, we're already recording and we'll jump into it. I don't like to just, we usually get talking and then wish out we were recording. So we'll just kind of make it organic. so first things first, man, you and I have known, you know, of each other and known each other for a little while now, but I've never really heard your just, you know, laid out origin story of how you got to where are today, like why you're in the health and fitness world and you know what.

Michael O'Neal (09:31.538)

All right.

Michael O'Neal (09:37.63)

Yep, let's do it.

Dr. Beau (09:57.316)

what all those steps were, so do want to just kind of lay that out for me?

Michael O'Neal (09:59.728)

Yeah, I have heard your origin story and you had a shattered leg, correct? Yeah.

Dr. Beau (10:08.228)

When I was nine, yeah, almost 31 years ago or something, so a while ago.

Michael O'Neal (10:11.385)

and I had a torn up hip when I was 16. I was a kicker and a punter and this is actually how and the the the the book that I released this summer like the the very first part of it is the sight like of the scene of the injury so I was a kicker and punter from middle school through high school and then into college but my

Dr. Beau (10:23.065)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Beau (10:34.785)

Mm-hmm.

Michael O'Neal (10:40.538)

summer going into junior year of high school, I had about a year of chronic hip and back pain that I was popping anti-inflammatories through and suddenly one of planted for a kickoff and then just rip. Like I can still hear the sound that my right hip flexor made, which kind of as a left footed kicker, I actually injured

my non-kicking leg, which just added to the confusion of everyone who tried to treat me, but everyone was unsuccessful in treating me. So I think I have a story that is similar to a lot of people where I had inexplicable pain, followed by a preventable injury, went through all of the mainstream institutional channels to solve, and no one could solve it.

adequately for me. From there I...

search the corners of alternative medicine. And I worked with chiropractors, I worked with a massage therapist who ended up helping me more than anyone did. And what that demonstrated to me was that it wasn't about the institution or the credentialing of the provider.

It was about the provider's ability to problem solve.

Michael O'Neal (12:19.834)

If I had a hip injury

And at 16 you said, Michael, you get to go work with...

Michael O'Neal (12:33.567)

without using any names. If you got to work with the premier sports medicine clinic in the state of Alabama, or here's some massage therapist in a random strip mall off Rocky Ridge Road, one of them is going to solve your hip problem. Now make a bet which one it is. Well, sure, sports medicine clinic, obviously.

Then over the years I learned that that was not a one-off. I continued playing college football. The massage therapist who helped me helped me enough to where I was continuing to kick. looking back, what kicking for me was trying to cash checks that my, trying to write checks that my body could not cash. So really the best solution for me would have been just like stop kicking footballs for a while.

But when you are in high school and you're pursuing a college scholarship, that is not an option. But if you just went, hey, everything is on the table, stop kicking football, stop engaging in this highly specialized activity that your body is underprepared for. Not just saying that that activity is inherently bad for the human body, but my body was underprepared for it in several ways. That is evidenced by the fact that I had an injury, no debate there.

So I managed to manage my pain through college and I even got to the point where I wouldn't even go to the athletic training staff because every time I went, it was the same script. Hey, this hurts. All clamshells. Boom. You're gonna tell me my left glute doesn't fire? I'm a left-footed kicker. I promise you my left glute fires just fine. Clamshells are not helping.

So I got to the point where I quit going to athletic training staff. I would just go see my massage therapist and you and I know that the label of massage therapist can be very broad. The woman I worked with was fully trained in Tom Meyer systems. And then if you get into even further corners of alternative medicine, the Burrell Institute,

Michael O'Neal (14:49.377)

with visceral manipulation, craniosacral therapy. So like a lot of stuff that, like if you're looking for Lane Norton to endorse human evidence, randomized evidence-based trials on it, he's not endorsing it. But those were the corners of the industry that helped me where the...

Michael O'Neal (15:15.881)

evidence-based ones did not. So to, and I just saw that over and over again. I saw more people slipping through those cracks and that's what eventually led me to

Dr. Beau (15:22.488)

Thank

Michael O'Neal (15:32.733)

I became a massage therapist and you you follow me, got into like FRC and some PRI and we can, I'm sure you and I could dive into the benefits and the limitations of each and every one of those systems. you're big with DNS, you're also been through FRC, so you and I, could spin off into that conversation, I'm sure. But the big takeaway was the

The mainstream institutionalized approach is not cutting it for a significant percentage of problems that people have.

where are those cracks and how can people fill those cracks outside, while operating outside the constraints of that more mainstream institutional system. So I became a massage therapist, I larked as a physical therapist, like legally, I never sold myself as a physical therapist, but I worked adjunctly with physical therapists, I worked adjunctly with chiropractors, I worked adjunctly with

Dr. Beau (16:27.246)

Mm-hmm.

Michael O'Neal (16:43.758)

Crossfit coaches, I was a Crossfit coach and eventually I built up enough of a base doing the restorative exercise or like how do you want to brand it? Like it's on the spectrum of therapy to training. Like you're not on the therapy table but you're not fully back on the training floor. And so I was operating somewhere in the middle of that spectrum.

Dr. Beau (17:03.149)

Mm-hmm.

Michael O'Neal (17:11.564)

when I started a reform motion therapy, which was massage therapy. And then you could call it corrective exercise, restorative exercise is what I did. But then what I noticed is I was getting better outcomes doing more restorative exercise than actual massage therapy. So eventually I moved more towards doing the restorative exercise. And then I realized that there's no need for a lot of restorative exercise if you don't screw yourself up exercising to begin with.

So what if I just created a well-programmed training plan for people? And that was when I moved more toward the personal trainer function. So then I had this stack of like manual therapy, physical therapy, lowercase p, lowercase t, and then personal training. And what I found is that outside of

extreme circumstances. Like obviously I'm not going to perform surgery on anyone or if someone probably doesn't come to see me the day after their ACL repair. But what happens when your insurance says that you're done but your body says that there's more work to do?

Dr. Beau (18:21.772)

Mm-hmm.

Michael O'Neal (18:35.361)

Insurance isn't paying anymore, but the gym you're trying to jump back into might not be able to regress enough for your needs. So then you're with a cash-based physical therapist. So cash-based physical therapy, a lot of times, really just looks like highly regressed personal training. It's like, where's the line? Who are you seeing? And so I started taking on a lot of clients who had graduated from physical therapy.

Dr. Beau (18:46.148)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Beau (18:54.734)

Mm-hmm.

Michael O'Neal (19:02.533)

but weren't ready to get back into their arms theory class yet. They graduated physical therapy, but every time they try to go back to their, you know, Pilates class, something just isn't working. So then I just put those people on any of that restorative exercise and then really just into a well organized training plan. And some of them I bridged the gap and then they went back to where they were, but

Eventually enough of them became personal training clients of mine that decided to open a gym for them.

Dr. Beau (19:39.972)

So when you say, you said in there somewhere that you started getting better results when you kind of maybe moved even away from a hybrid approach of like table and training to more of just, you know, the training approach and, you know, preventative of don't, you know, basically fuck yourself up in the first place. What, what's better mean though? Are we just talking less pain? You know, these people you're saying they couldn't quite get back to whatever they wanted to do. So it's just improved function, ability to operate in whatever form, like is it legitimate?

outcome measures or some assessment or you're like, hey, just people got out of pain, they moved better and felt better. Like what was better?

Michael O'Neal (20:15.046)

Let's start with how I was functioning as a massage therapist. And here's the cycle you run into. I do my workouts, my hip gets tight. I go to Michael and he rubs on my hip. My hip feels better when I go to my next workout. Two to four weeks later, my hip is just as tight as it ever was. And now I go back to Michael to rub on my hip.

So if I wanted to create a subscription service for massage therapy for people like, like I could, I could be the tightness management guy.

But what would happen is when I started increasing the corrective exercise or restorative stuff, I ended up getting rid of people as massage therapy clients. Hey, I'm coming. So how, I guess ultimately you say, what is better? Better would be their perceived need for my services.

or for that particular service. And then if like, you know, there's only like, there's table tests and you want to, Hey, you have 15 degrees of hip internal rotation. Last time I saw you, you had seven and like, you and like, you and I both know that we can neurologically hack a table test in a matter of a few minutes. So I like, I never appealed to a protractor as the proof that my methods work.

Because what happens if you appeal to the protractor, but then your people don't feel better and stop coming to you? I had an evidence-based outcome. Well, but they didn't have a better experience. So it's kind of that, now if you can have both, that's great, but eventually what I realized is that trying to interface at the strict metric level,

Michael O'Neal (22:15.735)

required would in order to justify it, would require having to make up more stories like about the metric. So you know, yeah, the narrative like, we're evidence based or we're not narrative based. Like every metric has a narrative and like what happens when you show a regression in your metrics. you're

Dr. Beau (22:25.504)

The narrative has to tell it.

Michael O'Neal (22:40.251)

you're not stretching enough. No one's ever stretching enough, right? As a kicker, my back hurt because I wasn't stretching enough, even though I did two to three, 20 to 30 minute stretch routines per day. you got to stretch your hamstrings more. Like I can kick my foot over my head. I don't think hamstring flexibility is the issue here.

Yes, I think what is better? If people perceive less pain and are able to do more at a of a user interface level, that would be a useful definition in the way that I operate. And because I do not have to code things for insurance.

Dr. Beau (23:22.936)

Mm-hmm.

Michael O'Neal (23:35.24)

Like I am not married to a protractor test. And it like, cause I have some people where I actually need to, they need less range of motion. I need your hit to rotate less. So wait, are you regressing range of motion? Well, like in a, in a sense, yes. Like you're, regressing a quality that you have a surplus of in order to.

Dr. Beau (23:48.877)

Yeah.

Michael O'Neal (23:59.425)

access more, access a different quality that you're deficient in, so like more stability. And I think because I have more, because I have more of a...

Michael O'Neal (24:15.089)

more of an independent and not as institutional approach, I'm able to function with more of an n equals one approach. And that can work for or against me because if I'm like, I know like it's all on me, right? If there are better outcomes and people are having a better experience, then I reap the benefits of those. If there are worse outcomes and people have a worse experience, I don't get to say, but Blue Cross Blue Shield said,

Dr. Beau (24:32.44)

Mm-hmm.

Michael O'Neal (24:44.777)

This is what I have to do. And this should work. Should. I did this, your body should do this. What happens when it doesn't? Well, the textbook said it should. So as a practitioner, I don't have to change my mental model because my methods didn't work. Because I am accountable to the science, I am accountable to the evidence-based research paper that I derived this modality from. Therefore,

Dr. Beau (24:49.74)

Mm-hmm. Well, you're...

Michael O'Neal (25:14.92)

I am right and your body is wrong.

I think that's the message a lot of people get.

Dr. Beau (25:21.572)

Well, here, I'll open up a big topic and then we'll kind of like, you know, pick at it and explore because we're touching on topics that we'll talk about, you know, in your book, force of the trees here, we'll get into that specifically, but you're kind of touching on the trappings of, you know, methodological based approaches, but also then institutionalized approaches, which can get down to the finances versus like what you were taught and kind of how those play off one another. But another big thing in here is also

why ask the question of what's better, it is going to be an off the wall question, but it will, I think, drum up a good conversation. Have you ever seen the show, the stage show by Darren Brown called Miracle? So Darren Brown is a mentalist, know, a hypnotist, and he does a stage show, and the lead up to the stage show is showing Darren Brown for a year or two going around all these holy roller evangelical pop-up tent faith healing.

Michael O'Neal (26:01.117)

No.

Dr. Beau (26:18.242)

shows, we'll call them shows, right? And he's basically calling out to, you know, the camera crew, hey, this is why, you know, the preacher, the pastor, whoever speaking is doing this, saying this, this is what's going to happen. And it's just, you know, it's like he's calling plays like Tom Brady is, know, on Sunday. And then he has a stage show. So it culminates in his stage show where he literally explains to the crowd.

I'm going to use the same techniques and methodologies that a evangelical preacher would in that pop-up tent in that southern field. And I can literally help you with aches, pains, maladies, but this is not faith-based. That's his claim. And then proceeds with the show and has some pretty miraculous outcomes, the name. So my question is when we start to talk about all these things of poking holes in, well, hey, people are in less pain than they operate better. And it's about the user experience, right? Which I agree.

But then we kind of have to start to think about if we want to continually sharpen our sword and prune and get better as a practitioner, provider, business owner, is the N equals one actually all experiential or do you actually have to be sound to science? Because I would agree, and follow me on this thread for a second, that evidence-based, and we know that a lot of evidence is

persuasive and paid off and stuff like that. Maybe it doesn't explore the topic that it's actually saying it's exploring. But we also know that if you don't actually adhere to science-based principles, like I know you're fan of Andrea Spina. So if we had to look at what we're doing with an exercise in terms of what the expected adaptation is, what the expected physiologic response is, we have some hunch we're running off. We're not just saying, hey, I want you to feel better and operate better, and we're just going to do X, Z.

even though it might make them feel better, we're like, this is the response. So in your mind, how do you go into your gym each day or programming for a client or whether it's continuing to educate yourself, do you ever have this kind of dual approach, a devil and angel on each shoulder of saying, we don't understand enough and there's this user experience approach where my job is to get them feel better and operate better. But does that, if I,

Dr. Beau (28:38.552)

Fully focused on that, will I ever actually get better at a practitioner? Or do those even need to collide? And I think that's where a lot of this comes from nowadays because I think generally in our field, we know what the general public doesn't, but we kind of know like our field is a bunch of, you know, hopped up on methods that we got taught and we hang on to in regards to work. Like you said, you have to get paid a certain amount of visits and we just have a lot of conflict.

And I think the conflict arises from that. Nobody quite knows if it's a user experience thing because we don't know how things work and there's a lot of placebo effect, you know, and, or are some people better at using first principles of science to get results. And when it doesn't work, you know, it's not a blame game thing. It's like, well, you know, God, there's a whole holistic approach to health, which is literally your book, right? It's all of these things, you know, nutrition and sleep and all these things. So.

I know that's a huge question, but that's how I wanted to set a foundation for the rest of conversation of where do you find yourself in between user experience better versus, I've learned a lot about exercise physiology and I want to get better as a practitioner. Where are you on that path currently that's going to set you on this next five to 10 years?

Michael O'Neal (29:51.935)

What would you say is the difference between a first principle and an assumption?

Dr. Beau (29:57.774)

So first principle is going to be something that's based on a hard science. So I know what the physiologic response is to altitude in terms of what's gonna happen with my hematocrit pack. I know what's gonna happen if I exercise in heat and how I can mimic that. I know how that's gonna be affected if I have a lack of iron. So that's a first principle. know how that science, we know, I say no, right? There's very few laws in physical science versus assumption. An assumption would be,

If we go back to the 90s or maybe for you 2000s, hamstring tightness is correlated with pain. That's a strong assumption, right? And then there's evidence that would show you're gonna have increased prevalence of low back pain, increased hamstring injuries with lack of mobility through the posterior chain or hamstring. You're gonna see that evidence out there. So that's, guess, my quick example of what I see as a first principle versus assumption.

Michael O'Neal (30:53.791)

I agree that some people are better at

Michael O'Neal (31:03.434)

reasoning. So you say like there are people like Spina who's all like this is the science and you were were reasoning from first principles.

Michael O'Neal (31:19.543)

People, the reason I ask that question is because people throw out the first principles term a lot, but no one really ever says what their first principles are. It's, we reason from first principles. Well, what if you pick the wrong principles and what if your reasoning isn't good? Reasoning from first principles doesn't necessarily protect you from getting a worse outcome.

Dr. Beau (31:47.652)

I would disagree. think the first principles are set. First principles are science if you're in the health world. If we're going to say that first principles here in finance, there's theories and schools of thought. That's like philosophy almost, right? There is a science to finance, but at some point it's kind of a philosophical approach. When you get into science, again, we don't know everything by a long shot. I we look at neurology, we know less than 5 % about, you know, how the human brain works.

So again, you're running on first principles based on the current level of science where it does hit against kind of like the ocean crashing against waves is I agree for two things. Individual reasoning is a problem because you run in your own biases and assumptions and everything with the knowledge or information at hand. And that's what we're all dealing with on an interpersonal level, right? Of like what I have to deal with, but also how I deal with the client and how I kind of interact with them with that information.

But that being said, it shouldn't change first principles. To decide a first principle for a go-to practitioner is that you have to have a high medial arch is not a first principle.

Michael O'Neal (32:53.287)

That way, they would say it's the first principle, but then you would say that's an assumption.

Dr. Beau (32:57.838)

But then you would have to show me from decades, which again, then we get into all these, we don't wanna name names, all these things where they kinda like wanna knock everything that's been learned about a realm, biomechanics, anatomy, whatever, it's like, I get that that stuff is not a law, right? There's Wilson's law, there's Wolf's law, we have laws, we're like, yeah, that's the response. You get that response physiologically.

But where I have a problem is when somebody says, hey, this is a first principle, that's how we operate, and they may get results, and this gets back into our question actually. You get results, what do the results come from? User experience, interface between two people, placebo effect, is it legit, and we just don't have the science to back that up? So again, back to kind of my question, and if you have more for me, I'm open for it, but how do you keep down the path of getting better? I guess what I'm asking is how does Michael O'Neill

sharpen his sword if you're kind in this like, well, my job is to create the best user experience. Is it still like, I gotta go learn more methods or is it like, man, I need to get, I need to go read, you know, up on Hilton's, you know, customer service principles and like, you know, experiential learning and everything that's gonna make that person have the best experience possible.

Michael O'Neal (34:17.781)

if you're hurting people in your workouts.

then there is at least one first principle that you're not adhering to. We could say load management. Have you seen that there's some meme and it's like a puppet finger person and each finger is, I think it's like physical therapy and massage therapy and it may be one of those like inner, this method, this method, this method, this method, and then the hand underneath them all, it just says load management.

Like, how many methods could we look at and you and I would just say, like they finally regressed something. It was actually load management and the tendon had appropriate time to recover. it was, you were, there was a discrepancy between like the tendon remodeling cycle and the muscle breakdown and rebuild cycle. There's a curve I'll draw for lot of my people. Like if they start,

If they have like tendinitis pain that starts to, don't want to say flare up, that starts to show up. that's, well here, guess I can, maybe I'm answering your question. Here is an example of how under, so let's say understanding the science, but then creating an accessible user interface for that science for your clients to.

increase their compliance and make sure that they are still getting the outcome that they hired you to get them. So let's say that I have someone who starts getting some elbow pain with some pulling. Let's say that this person has been with me for four months, been progressing, beginner gains, cool, maybe previously not all that trained. You and I both know that it wasn't whether I decided eight reps or 12 reps that got his lap stronger.

Michael O'Neal (36:19.255)

It was the fact that he went from doing nothing to doing something. So now he's been happy with his progress, but then let's say month five, maybe month six, he starts to get a little elbow pain. And one thing I established with everyone in their first week with me is there is the muscle, the muscle working pain, and then there is the like the ice pick and the joint, there is the hot tendon. And so I try, I, but like, I don't have to,

I don't have to even use the word tendonitis. I don't have to use the term closing angle joint pain. I used to. I was so pretentious when I did that. I don't do that anymore. So I'll say like joint pain, know, is it like ice pick and shoulder pinching pain, right? If you feel anything like that with anything that I ask you to do, let me know. And then there's a movement modification. Maybe I throw in, you know, cars or positional isometrics or

You have some sort of like rib cage, you know, breathing, whatever it needs to be, like modify their program accordingly. But one, one thing I will do if the, the, say what, what I know is tendony stuff that's happening. I'll say, all right, you have your muscles and I'll draw, I'll draw a waves. Like here is how your muscles break down and recover. And it's a higher frequency curve. draw this on the white.

And then I'll say, here's how your tendons get stronger. And I'll draw a much lower frequency wave. And then I'll pick a point where the muscle curve is high and the tendon curve is low. And I'll say, when you have this tendony pain, it is because the muscle and the tendon are

getting strong they're being worked or and they're getting they're recovering at different rates so right now your muscle isn't tired your muscle can still do this pull but the tendons that that muscle attaches to is not ready for this pull you're not broken there is just a mismatch mismatch between what your muscle is prepared for and what your tendon is prepared for

Michael O'Neal (38:39.856)

So let me modify this. I'll take this pull, I'll change this angle to something that is not painful, and then we will retest it. Another benefit I have, I work with all of my people two to three days a week. So a test and retest for me is every session they work with me. I don't have a month, two months between sessions. They're not showing up to me only when I'm in pain. So I know...

I know what their baselines are because I'm working with them so frequently. I know what they're capable of and I can tell when something is off.

Dr. Beau (39:18.244)

So big thing that I think I help perpetuate not a positive light, but I've worked with the group You know rehab the performance for the past, you know better part of decade Which basically help him PT students Cairo students strength addition coaches kind of bridge that gap which you've mentioned that You know lingo a couple times of we don't want to leave people in rehab purgatory, right? Low low level load management you want to get to this thing and then you know benefits run out or you're at the end of your Expertise and you just kind of leave them in no man's land

But what I think I helped perpetuate again in a negative light was that everything is just load management. That you can skip the diagnostic process and just be like, we can regress the load, slowly progress the load, change the angle, change the angle of tissue load. And the problem that I saw occurring in new docs or students was

You know, your first job, like you said, if you're hurting somebody in the gym, you're breaking a first principle from a, know, a clinical standpoint. mean, you're breaking that, you know, do no harm. How do you, what's the hedge? And I think this is good because you're, know, you've been in the table world, massage therapy, you've been injured yourself. Like you're explaining pain in a very coherent way to your clientele. Like when, what's the break point for you where you're like, God, you got to go get this looked at, right? We tried to manage it or like, this is just too severe. Like what, are there any like,

Certain teasery you gotta get out of here man, or do you feel like you handle stuff pretty well within the gym? And you have a high, you know ratio of success with most things

Michael O'Neal (40:48.401)

zero improvement or worsening for 14 days or more, say go get it checked out. That is my...

And just based on everyone I've worked with, if I have seen you, so what that gives me in a 14 day period, I will have seen that person between four and six sessions. I will have regressed their load. I will have changed their angle. We will have done the load management thing. If the load management doesn't yield any improvement for 14 days or if it's worsened, that's when I'll say, yeah,

go get it checked out. Now, if they want to get something checked out before that, I'll never tell them not to. If they ask me, let's say it's two days in, hey, should I go get an MRI? I'll give them, hey, give it two weeks, because in two weeks, you at least won't feel like you've wasted time or money getting that more advanced imaging, but I'll also know that

it's probably beyond a basic modification that I can make in one of your regular scheduled sessions. Now, maybe I need to pull up my therapy table again. I don't really use my therapy table much anymore, but there have been times where I say, let's do an extra session, a restorative exercise session, and maybe I am walking them through, maybe it is elbow cars at that point.

Maybe it is like really specific elbow, pails, rails, or positional isometrics, which you could still say that's load management, but it's more specific load management. Now I'm trying to think, I'm trying to think if I've had an issue with anyone in my gym where that hasn't worked. Because obviously I want, like I want to have a limiting

Michael O'Neal (42:50.686)

principle and so one of those limiting principles is 14 days with zero improvement or worsening go get some sort of opinion. MRI, go see your doc. I'll you what's happened more times than not. When I have referred out after 14 days, they don't get any helpful.

information from whoever they go to. Yeah, like they come back and it's, my doctor who looks like a walking heart attack told me that I just need to take it easy. Like, cool. And I think that's why I at least go to 14 days because the probability that if they go see a doctor at day eight, nine, or 10, that doctor's probably, of course, if there's an acute injury, hey, yeah, yeah, we're talking like, hey, this,

Dr. Beau (43:15.748)

That was my next question. Do you do anything?

Dr. Beau (43:21.956)

Thank

Dr. Beau (43:39.544)

Yeah, we're throwing that out.

Michael O'Neal (43:42.184)

this little tendonitis sensation creeped up on me. also there people go off and do their own stuff too. I don't deal with that as much because my people see me so frequently, which was part of why I, when I was doing the restorative stuff several years ago and it was, you know, make someone feel better, know, regress the load, give them some sort of restorative exercise, but then they'd run back to whatever they were doing and then they just,

Dr. Beau (43:44.42)

Show it up.

Michael O'Neal (44:12.551)

get re-injured. And so I thought, what if, what if rather than feeling like I'm too good to be a personal trainer or like I'm too good to just be a gym owner, what if I just took ownership of people's training more comprehensively rather than

all these trainers, all these gym owners suck. Now come to me and let me fix you. you went back to them, you got hurt again? Well, I mean, I'm just better than them. I don't know why you're still going to them. Well, where should I go? Well, who should I train with? Well, you know, I'm like, wait a minute. What if I actually believe that I was getting superior outcomes and I could create a superior fitness experience for people? At some point, I had to act on that and assert more ownership of people's training.

And that's why when I think, and I knew you've opened a gym as well. So would, there's probably some resonance with what I'm saying and work at some point you were probably like, you know what? I just want more ownership of people's, of people's fitness, because I think that I can create something that will serve them better rather than sending them off here and here and here. And you know, maybe I trusted the coach who used to be at that gym, but now they hired a new one or like, you can't control those variables, but.

you can still be held responsible for the things that happen even though you didn't put them through a workout. Will Bo fix my elbow? And then I went back and I did these butterfly kipping pull-ups and tore my elbow up. But I guess Bo just didn't do a good enough job for me. And whereas Bo probably would have said, let's have a conversation about the why behind your butterfly kipping pull-ups as a 47-year-old attorney.

Dr. Beau (45:55.556)

Which is, again, so here's a, and again, just use this as a thought experiment, not, I'm definitely not attacking, I just, I love, you're a very bright guy, so I like talking about the stuff. So do you ever feel like, this is a thought I have, so that's why I'm asking. Is it a trapping to think that, and if you don't have these clients, I guess it's a moot question. So if somebody comes to you and you have a training perspective around ameliorating pain and helping people perform better and accomplish their goals, let's say somebody doesn't exercise.

And I like the example of like a laborer, right? Construction worker, somebody that unequivocally, if you looked at their life should be healthy. They're moving around all day, they're lifting loads, they're doing things, but they probably, you know, and then we'd be like, they don't eat well, smoke, whatever, all these other things. But do you ever feel like a trapping is also, everybody's got to train, right? Well, that's an appropriate way or just train again, because we could talk about ideologies, methodologies.

And then we're like, hey, to get people out of pain or keep people out of pain, they have to train or they have to train a certain way. Is that a trapping? Is that no, that's how it is. Cause we have a lack of movement within our culture. Any thoughts on that?

Michael O'Neal (47:06.671)

If one of my clients finds a better solution for their problem, then they will leave me and they'll use that solution rather than me. And then I just wasn't good enough or the right fit for that client.

Dr. Beau (47:24.388)

Yeah, and I guess, I mean, that's a succinct way to answer it, but it also doesn't get you a jail or get out of jail free card. So let's say you have a 67 year old woman that comes to you, never had pain in her life, right? Just moseying through, she's going to, you know, church group on Wednesday, goes to church on Sunday, it's in her garden, she's active, but she's not, you know, lifting a barbell. It's got a good social circle, eats fairly healthy, she drinks water, she's not smoking cigarettes, she's not gambling, you know. She comes to you she's like,

Michael O'Neal (47:35.637)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Beau (47:53.796)

kind like a month ago, I didn't do anything. My back just started hurting. And let's say, and again, thought experiment, you take her through three months of like stellar, know, getting her moving, working on maybe specific movements, and then also just, you know, kind of loading her chassis so she can, you know, tolerate stuff. She's feeling awesome. She falls back into her normal life. Do you think that's a failure of her?

what she's doing in her normal life or do you feel like, you're actually inadequate in movement and load and that's what you would need to substantiate long-term benefits.

Michael O'Neal (48:33.046)

I want to make sure I understand the example. She was not in pain for a very long time. And then all of sudden, she has back pain at 67.

Dr. Beau (48:42.316)

All right, yeah.

Dr. Beau (48:46.18)

Nothing's changed in her mind. just, know, backstarted bugging her, it's getting to the point now she's wanting to do something. She heard good things about you, she shows up.

Michael O'Neal (48:52.702)

And then she comes to me and she spends a few weeks with me and her back feels better. And then wait, what's, and then what happens after that? She stops working with me after that?

Dr. Beau (49:00.036)

But she's not a gym rat. Yeah, she's not a gym rat. Yeah, she's just like, don't want to, I'm not big in the gym. Let's say it's summer now. It was winter. She's like, man, I love gardening. I want to get back out. I don't have the time to come in here two, three times a week, Michael. And let's say you don't see her for the summer. She comes back in next fall. She's like, my back's bugging me again. Do you think that's a failure of her? Like she needed you and needed to keep going or do you feel like...

That's something might be going on with your back or like, I know there's a lot of options there, but I'm trying to ask a broad question, like a societal question with a specific example.

Michael O'Neal (49:49.271)

So is it her failure because she stopped working out with me? Or is it her failure because she stopped working out?

Dr. Beau (49:56.612)

or just working out, it doesn't have to be you. Like even you can be like.

Michael O'Neal (50:04.053)

I

Dr. Beau (50:07.128)

Like, do you see movement and load management and training almost as a deficiency in Westernized culture? That if she's not doing that, well, you your back pain, let's call it just generalized back pain or idiopathic back pain. Is there a conversation in your mind going on or with her that you're going to have that you're like, you know, this, you know, we wouldn't want to diagnose asondinamri, but if we don't do X, Y, Z, like it's going to be hard for you to operate. Cause I'm assuming.

the further you get into your career, that's, you know, all of us are going to be hit with those people that return. And they're going to return to the same stuff that came before because they fell off for whatever reason, right? Time or whatever money. And then how do you reconcile that? Like, that, well, hey, we fall right back into like, you stopped taking your fish oil. Like we're just going to start taking it again. Or is there something else going on? Like, is it a cultural societal thing that we lack that movement load management and day-to-day life?

Is a, she has a specific pathology and that's why she's having this recurring thing. Or is it just a, you know, it's a forest for the trees. They're a holistic approach and there's other areas of your life that I think you could help. And then you wouldn't need me as much. And then that's kind of the approach. And maybe there's not a clean answer to this, but I'm trying to draw out again. Points that you hit on your book of, you know, cause I'm at, sometimes I catch myself being like, God, we need more of this. Like you need to move more. You need to do, you know, you need to pick up something heavy. And it's like.

Michael O'Neal (51:17.975)

Hmm.

Dr. Beau (51:29.668)

Yeah, but there's also people that have never done that and don't have the same outcomes, you know, and that's that's hard to reconcile. And if we're doing an N equals one approach, of course, that's what we'd say to again get out of jail free. But any thoughts again on that?

Michael O'Neal (51:42.145)

Yeah, maybe take her through some past life regression narrative therapy and try to understand the relationship between her back pain and her seventh great grandmother. And then we could talk through it and then her back pain would go away. And then I could be on that TV show about how their persuasion actually hypnotizes people into not feeling pain. No, I think...

I think if we're gonna use her as a proxy for the broader culture, and I think it's safe to say that there is a, we could say there's a movement deficiency. Like overall, the design of Western culture is more sedentary. You can.

become very rich and very successful to the detriment of your health and a lot of jobs and professions incentivize sacrificing your health for better pay, for better status. I think, when you, so if you answer the question from a broader cultural perspective, I think it's safe to say that there is a movement.

deficit among more people than probably there ever has been just because of the design of society and the design is the destiny. can I take that? What happened? Then the question is, well, what happens when an individual example of does not fit the pattern of the broader culture?

Michael O'Neal (53:25.536)

And that's why I don't work with a ton of people.

Michael O'Neal (53:30.73)

if she works with me and feels better and then she stops working with me and doesn't feel better anymore, then she comes back and works with me and feels better.

I don't care about the causation. Like everything's, well, it depends. has multiple causes. Yeah, that's fine. Should I do her adduction drop test? And if she's, maybe she's not managing her left AIC pattern well. And then get her to do an adductor pullback. And what if like just that makes her back feel better versus going through my training program?

What if you had just done the lunges and never done the hip lift and the adductor pullback? What if you do the adductor pullback and someone feels better and they never lunge in their life? You could find, I'm sure you could find examples of all of all of those. I've still had some restorative, I still do some restorative exercise with people. Like I'll do a four session series and it's, Hey, it's usually when they've hit a roadblock and then I give them of course load management.

but then of, okay, I've been answering this question more from the perspective of movement volume, but we could also add the lens of movement variability. So usually when I work with the people who are active, because then you could say, Michael, you just get a bunch of people who aren't doing anything, and then you put them in their system.

And even in your book, you talk about how most people aren't trying to go from great to optimal. They're trying to go from inadequate to adequate. So anything will work if you're just finding a bunch of inadequate people, giving them anything that's not, not totally idiotic, and then they're going to get better. To which I would respond, yeah. But guess who got them to do the things they need to do to be adequate? you never, you never.

Michael O'Neal (55:40.002)

You didn't need that exercise program. wasn't that exercise program that helped you. was the first principle of increasing load and blah, blah. Okay, but who got them to do it? Who created a setup that they bought into?

Michael O'Neal (55:57.743)

So then with the other people, the people who are already training like crazy, but then they run into a roadblock, those people tend to need more variability, maybe less volume and more variability. So we have two categories of people. There's the people who are going from inadequate to adequate, where all you have to do is basic stuff that doesn't hurt them.

perform well on a regular basis, they're probably gonna get better. And then you have the people who are trying to go from great to optimal. Those people usually need a little more variability. But then I don't work with, only people who I've worked with who are trying to go from great to optimal, and there are a few like garage gym warriors who, like, hey, I some technique focus and cool, like I teach them some single leg work.

and then they're backstop hurting because they don't hit a traditional deadlift two days a week anymore and they start to work in some single leg work. To you and me, that is very simple and that would be part of something that we put into a regular program anyway. But to them, that may be the first time they've ever heard it. And then the other, the far end of that spectrum would be with some of the kickers and punters who I've worked with at the college and pro level.

That's the whole conversation in and of itself. When you're, I need to plug in, my battery's about to die.

Dr. Beau (57:33.07)

You're good.

Michael O'Neal (58:17.564)

done.

It's not showing that I'm plugged in.

Dr. Beau (58:54.489)

there.

Michael O'Neal (59:08.867)

Okay.

Dr. Beau (59:10.37)

Thank you. I can hear you, but your mic's off. So you're on your FaceTime.

Michael O'Neal (59:11.377)

I had to change my mic. Are we okay to continue like this? Okay, Yeah, so I don't know, did that capture what you were looking for from the little old lady example?

Dr. Beau (59:18.34)

We're good. Yeah. Yeah, it sounds fun.

Dr. Beau (59:28.568)

Yeah. So another thing I pulled out of there is you kind of said, which I agree with that it's, and we've heard numerous people in the fitness realm, you know, maybe the biggest job that coach has is actually getting people that wouldn't work out on their own to start working out. Right. There's people that are just going to, they're going to train regardless of what you or I have them do. They're still going to train. They're still doing something. Do you have any keys or,

maybe not tips, but like anything that you focus on to really like stir up intrinsic or internal motivation for your clients or somebody that's maybe really, maybe they've been referred to you and they're just not really hopped up to train. There's like, I'm here because I want to feel better. Like, do you have anything you focus on with them to try to get them motivated and get them going?

Michael O'Neal (01:00:15.363)

A lot of the people I train want the most efficient solution to their desired outcome. Fitness is one of the most difficult things to Alex Formosy is on everyone's algorithm now. And I think one of the best things that he has ever laid out is the value equation. Have you seen him talk about that?

Yeah, so the, can't, I don't remember exactly everything, but the, like the belief you're going to get your perceived outcome and, or your desired outcome is on the top of the division. And then one of the things on the bottom of the division is like divided amount divided by the amount of time and effort it's going to take. There, there is no

Michael O'Neal (01:01:12.709)

Yeah. Let's look at Ozempic. Like why does Ozempic sell? Because it gives people their stated dream outcome with minimum effort and minimum time. You and I would, our knee-jerk reaction to the Ozempic craze is probably, well, you could get all of these outcomes with.

with lifestyle change and exercise and dialing in your diet. And once you get off the shot, you haven't created any behavior change. So all the weight's gonna come back. like, so that is the, that is, don't just want to say rational. That is the rationalistic approach. And a rationalistic approach to any problem does not account for human behavior, human psychology.

Michael O'Neal (01:02:14.701)

One of the things, so how do I try to, understanding that I'm selling one of the things that is the hardest to fit into that value equation, what are the ways that you can kind of soften the blow? Well, hey, I got a buddy who works out like crazy and he trains like eight sessions a week. Like, do I have to do that? Like, no, you do not have to do eight strength training sessions a week.

If you're looking to be Chris Bumstead, then you probably, he's probably doing some doubles on hypertrophy sessions. he is doing more sessions per week than there are days in a week, no doubt.

If you are looking to lose your gut, increase bone density and have adequate muscle mass, you can strength train two days a week. And as long as you're really efficient with those sessions, here's what I say, 104 a year, 104 a year. And it doesn't even have to be two days a week because I know you're going to go on vacation.

but can you come in three days the week before you go on vacation?

So I think framing it as 104 workouts a year is what you need to make progress, but also avoid burnout. And some of my people come three days a week, like as much as they can. And that's fine. 156 a year. When I was playing college football, we hit the weight room three days a week in the off season. I don't know that any layman needs more strength sessions per week than

Michael O'Neal (01:03:58.363)

like the Alabama football team does. Now, of course they're like, they're doing their agility drills. They're practicing as well, but you know, maybe like for gen pop, the most I'd probably ever recommend would be like a four day a week split, like five, if you were to split like upper and lower, but really what we run, we run two to three full body strength sessions a week. I used to do more of an isolated split, which is actually my preference for me.

for someone who is going to do four to five strength training sessions a week, like I will take one session that is chest and triceps because I still have some of the vanity of 12 year old Michael when he started bench pressing in his garage with his dad. So I want a day where I train chest and triceps. But for most people, you can do a 45 to 60 minute full body strength session with some interval conditioning and there are

VO2 max is going to increase with the interval conditioning. Muscle mass is going to increase as much as I would love for everyone to honor our ancestral endurance bias, biological blueprints. A lot of people just aren't going to run for an hour. A lot of people just aren't going to bike for 40 minutes. A lot of people just aren't going to do zone two stuff because it's boring.

So if you, for the people who actually want that and are bought in, then I do have those options as well, but what is the bare bones minimum? 104 full body strength slash interval conditioning workouts a year. Give me 50 to 60 minutes two days a week. And you're gonna get the outcomes increased. You're gonna get all the outcomes that Peter Ati is telling you that you need to improve.

You're going to get the outcomes that you hear Andrew Huberman saying, increased bone density, increased muscle mass, VO2 max. These are the formulas for longevity. So that is what our gym is optimized for, to move people toward that. Increased bone density, increased muscle mass, increased VO2 max. And if you want to run your first marathon, cool. I have options for that too, that actually integrate with the strength training that we're already doing.

Michael O'Neal (01:06:22.833)

So we wanted to take a true hybrid approach, training the disparate disciplines that do not overtly compliment one another and oftentimes interfere with one another. But the hybrid athlete conversation may be another episode.

Dr. Beau (01:06:39.524)

Yeah. yeah. So I would agree. Like everybody's time pressed financially pressed. So, I appreciate the input on the kind of intrinsic buy-in there. I mean, we've touched on almost every topic that's in your book in some way or fashion, even though you expand upon it quite a bit. But what was the, what was the catalyst for writing this book was just, I want to get my thoughts out there. Was it, I keep telling my clients the same thing. Like what, what got you to sit down and actually do this?

Michael O'Neal (01:07:12.101)

saying the same thing over and over, but then that's like, well, you can make a blog, like why write a book? Well, you know that having, being an author, it just increases your ethos, makes you more credible. As someone whose credentials are LMT, NMT, CPT, I don't have the institutional ethos.

to go toe to toe with MD, DPT, DC. really, part of it was a tactical move to increase my credibility as an authority. Hey, website, download the first chapter of my book. Hey, here's the book. Hey, what's different about here versus other place you train? Well, here's the guy training you and here's the approach he takes. Here's what he believes. So one, was about

increasing my credibility and an authority knowing that the strict institutional credentialing would be an uphill battle for me in the industry considering that my like actual degrees are bachelors of philosophy and religion and a master's of education to be an English teacher. How's this guy gonna help my shoulder pain? Write a five paragraph essay about it.

So that was one. And then two, to have a ready-made resource for clients and potential clients. Because it is, like it's kind of the script. Because at some point you're saying something over and over again. you know, when you're like, when you're writing your Instagram captions or you're sending an email, like, huh, what can I create from scratch today? Huh, what if I go to my paragraph in this book? What if I take those first two sentences? And then there's something.

happening in the zeitgeist right now that I could particularly tie that to. And now you have a jumping off point for other content. beyond the traditional answers of like, man, I wanted to write a book so I could help people. Cool. So the entrepreneurial or the professional, the tactical move in that department is like increasing your credibility and establishing authority.

Michael O'Neal (01:09:34.231)

especially if you're someone who cannot rely on diplomas to just flash at people. And then also to compile your worldview or your method into a ready-made document that anyone can access as a, it will also say very, it is a low-cost lead generator. If you read my book,

and then you come in to sit down with me about training with me, you've already read my book. If you read my book and then decided to seek me out, you're a very hot lead. From a business perspective, it is a very good lead magnet as well. But I will say it's

Dr. Beau (01:10:21.124)

Is there anything else outside of the gained authority besides just growing your gym or is there anything specific that you want to do with this or plan to do with this if it not necessarily if it blows up just kind of pulls on a few strings within the profession or a little bit outside of the profession? Anything in mind?

Michael O'Neal (01:10:42.511)

didn't write the book with anything like that in mind. One of the things, well, part of writing the book was following my own advice or following some of the best advice that's ever been given to me. And the advice is prioritizing systems over goals. The goal was not, want to write a book. The goal was never, I want to open a gym. The goal was never,

Like I want to be a massage therapist. The goal was not, want to be an author. There is a system I'm trying to build of, I want to be part of a system of alternative health. I'm gonna call them lifeboats or rowboats. Because I think people are starting with,

Even from the last time I talked about this on a podcast, it's just accelerated.

People are more open to alternatives than they've ever been. say distrust in mainstream institutions, all that. People are more primed to seek out superior alternatives than they've ever been, especially in health and wellness. Those are the cruise ships, those big institutions. I view what we're doing with our gym as a lifeboat or as a rowboat.

The benefit of those is that they are very easy to steer. Turning a cruise ship around takes miles, but you can turn a rowboat on a dime. I view myself, I view my gem as, and this book is part of that. We are one of those rowboats, or one of those lifeboats. I think that the farm is one of those lifeboats. I think it's a bigger lifeboat that's been around longer, but that's...

Michael O'Neal (01:12:42.241)

I wanted to join that movement of alternative health solutions. Seeing what you've done at the farm for the past 10, 10 plus years now, for you to not just open up a chiropractic mill. Like you could, you can make a lot of money cracking a back every five minutes. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Beau (01:13:05.86)

think about it every once in a while.

Michael O'Neal (01:13:11.557)

But we know the end game of that. We know what that gets people. And so I think with your lifeboat, I wanted to build a lifeboat, and we could name several others, there will be a critical mass of lifeboats at some point where there really is a competing cruise ship.

And I, everything, every big change happens gradually then suddenly. And I think we're creeping up on the suddenly. I'm glad that I got to get started before, like the people who just want to cash in on the next big opportunity did. Cause you, like you, Hey, I've been doing this. Like you, I'm sure you see stuff in the headlines. You're like, I've been shouting this for 10 years. My, my people come into me and say,

You hey, I saw this on on this podcast and it says that I need to be taking creatine. Have you ever heard of creatine? I'm like, yes, I bought my first bottle of creatine at the GMC down the street from my house in 2007. And my mom wouldn't let me take it when I got home because my doctor, my pediatrician told me that it would dehydrate me and destroy my kidneys. So yeah, yeah.

Dr. Beau (01:14:34.072)

My mom thought I would get kidney disease.

Michael O'Neal (01:14:36.303)

And so, so my dad, my dad promptly took that creatine bottle out of my hand and he marched it downstairs and hid it under the kitchen sink in the basement so that he and I could take it as we left. Yeah. It's the one I don't, I don't remember, but I do remember seeing like Jekyll and Hyde and like magic eight ball, like they're black magic. Like there was some, there was some hardcore pre-workouts that ended up getting.

Dr. Beau (01:14:46.116)

C1. C1 is what my brand was from GNC.

Dr. Beau (01:15:02.786)

Which to our parents kind of aid, who knows what was in that shit back then though. So.

Michael O'Neal (01:15:09.817)

Yeah, yeah, like I get the high STEM stuff, but then, you know, with the creatine is a great example of, you hear the term bro science, right? So this is something else to develop industry literacy among my clients. say that, and I have a drawing I did for this too, I say the bro science is 20 years ahead of

now I'm forgetting my own example. say, okay, here we go. The bro science is 20 years ahead of the institutional research. The institutional research is 20 years ahead of whatever is being implemented as evidence-based practice. Evidence-based practice is 20 years ahead of whatever is being taught in schools at the time. And whatever is being taught in schools at the time is 20 years ahead of whatever insurance is willing to pay

So you have about a 60 to 80 year gap between the actual best practices and then whatever your insurance company is willing to pay for.

Dr. Beau (01:16:19.192)

Yeah, it's not that far off.

Michael O'Neal (01:16:19.695)

Do you think, let me run this by you, because I'm in my own echo chamber, no one really, do you think that's a broad strokes captures the state of the industry?

Dr. Beau (01:16:31.746)

Yeah, in my, so to bounce back to your previous topic of, know, lifeboats versus the cruise ship and kind of the mounting, you know, the tipping point to use Gladwell's, you know, term. I tell people all the time is in our office because, you know, this is something I want to bring up out of your book that I just, and I'm poking fun here, so don't take this in a negative light. You kind of talk about, Hey, the best way to suss out a PT is if they take insurance, don't go to them.

you know, if you go to a Cairo's office and it's flashy, you know, showroom, like car showroom, like, you know, run. And it's like, we take insurance and I feel like our staff has smiles on their faces. Like, dude, just Michael, like shooting shots across the line here. But what I always tell people is we take insurance because, and this is the honest to God truth. have no qualms talking about this is like the state of Alabama has extremely high reimbursement rates for somebody who does rehab based chiropractic. If that changes, we got to change real fast. And do I think we make as much money as we should make?

Michael O'Neal (01:17:10.095)

Yeah.

Dr. Beau (01:17:29.42)

No, I don't, but I'm willing to take that hit to kind of service both from a business standpoint, but also service a community. That tipping point is not too far away, but that capitalist structure of our country is what's going to create the ultimate tipping point is the consumer will say, I'm not going to pay $800 a month for insurance and then still have a deductible and only be able to go to these people. And then these people are terrible because they're in network. And then I still go to somebody who's out of network and pay cash. And when

And I always kind of say, I think people like you, obviously you're in a little bit different realm, not an insurance model, but we're already set up. I'm like, dude, let it come. Then the competitive market plays out and whoever was taking insurance, it's going to be whoever's decent at their job because you could charge $150, you could charge $25 and people are still going to be like, it's not insurance, which is just wildly misunderstood consumer market right now. But anyways, that's a long side conversation.

Back to your question to me, yeah, but agree. And that's the market shifts based on those things that are paid. But then if we played the other side of that, you know, I went to Cairo school, people say, I mean, I get the question all the time, where'd you learn to do this? And I always, you know, jokingly say non-chiropractic school, right? It was all the stuff we learned outside, which a lot of that stuff teeters on bro science, but it gets back to our initial point of.

My thing is the people that push the envelope within our field, the general field of like, you know, health and wellness, the movement, whatever you want to call it, are the people that are really good. And I hate to bring it up again, like adhering to first principles, understanding science and playing with it enough, right? From their experience, a bunch of N equals ones over time and saying, I could give a shit less of insurance pays for this. think it works. I'm to do it in my practice and kind of see if it still works. And that gets back to what is actually better. and if you can tell, I'm trying to put a big bow on this conversation, but

I think what we have to be aware of is institutions are necessary still because they do create credentialing which allows for people to not get hurt. That's the whole goal, right? If you have a state board, you go to school, you get credentialed. What tends to happen though is people don't get better even though they don't get hurt. So that's another form of neglect or harm. And what you're kind of, think alluding to is the...

Dr. Beau (01:19:46.244)

the mounting frustration and seeking different results, alternative medicine, cash-based PT's, looking at a personal trainer, which we would say from a credentialing standpoint, it's like, I'm gonna go to them for my aches and pains and overall better health and wellness. The markets push people there. The market is demanding that. And I think, like you said, you're in the best position possible. You're established, you're a bright guy, you're creating systems, not a money grab.

Right, you're playing the long game in essence and creating credibility with a book like this. One thing I want to ask you though with the book, I mean I'm looking at the cover of it right now, have the trunks on the tree, we're talking about some of the different pillars of health. How much of that plays into what you guys are discussing or I guess educating your clientele on?

So is it just they're going in there and you're lifting weights and you're working on endurance or are you working on a holistic approach or is that in the future is you wanna be a bigger rowboat? Yeah, how do you guys approach that?

Michael O'Neal (01:20:56.079)

Do one thing well first. well, yeah, if you look at the book, am that far tree on the very first tree, I am not performing orthopedic surgery at Reform Health and Performance. But, then, you know, physical therapy, you know, lowercase P, lowercase T, I'm able to capture a pretty broad spectrum of what someone would experience in physical therapy. And it kind of what you said about,

Hey, how do you pick a physical therapist? When I went through my session with you a couple of years ago, one thing I noticed about our session is that you did not have three other people scheduled at the same time as me to work with you. also you did not hand me a sheet of paper and then go type notes on your laptop.

Dr. Beau (01:21:42.094)

We just did that because I knew it was you. No.

Michael O'Neal (01:21:53.969)

while I followed the sheet of paper that you handed me and three other people doing the same thing. that, and that, like when you, and you, you know this, when I talked about the insurance based physical therapy mills, that is the model that I am talking about. Because I, and I think I say that in the book that the, actual economic model relies on, you know, four patients per provider per hour. So, and like, I was a tech at,

I was the one who was running around hitting timers, changing laundry. do your shoulder like this. so I've, I've been immersed in that. yeah. So at the gym right now, we are in our current location where like we actually have a gym. I'm not, you renting space from another gym. have a closet and then a train. We were two years in our current building and we do, can say, Hey, we do strength training and VO.

Because like it's straight training and hit. We put it in the session together. So I want to do that very well. I've had a couple of people later on more endurance stuff. So I write programs and coach people through that as well. We do, I tell people, I don't have a nutrition conversation with anyone until they have demonstrated that they'll show up and work out for at least two months.

So I'll do for people who need a nutrition consult, I'll sit down and do this periodically. And then it's, hey, how much effort do you wanna put into this? Do you wanna do more of an elimination protocol or do you wanna count all your macros? And then you just have to figure out what will they actually do. Mental health, I don't think there's...

any mental issue that like getting jacked and in shape can't solve. I wouldn't say that there's no issue, but I think it's a lot higher than most people might want to estimate.

Dr. Beau (01:23:51.854)

Bro, so I'm for you right there.

Michael O'Neal (01:24:07.747)

Yeah. So, the, like the mental, I the mental health is a by-product of honoring your biology when your, when your body is functioning properly, then like there, there's no distinction between your brain and your body. Like there is, but there's not, there, there is no question that changing your body changes your brain. So that would be my interface on the, mental health side. And then just being relationship based, like training people, like, it's not really a, it's not really a fitness job. It is a relationship job.

So what let's see mental health strength training and during its chiropractic I am NOT doing any acute high-velocity adjustments at my facility in case you were wondering Though sometimes as a massage therapist you might go across a rib and get a nice clunk, but that is within my scope of practice and then yoga I We don't do yoga at my facility and most of the people who are into yoga

I'll say this, the hardest, the most difficult problems that I have had to solve with people has been from hyper flexibility, not from stiffness. So in the yoga department, that's fine if people wanna do it, but most people are gonna be better off learning to control their hamstrings through a Nordic.

Dr. Beau (01:25:09.796)

They already got what they need.

Michael O'Neal (01:25:38.373)

versus stretching their hamstrings through a forward fold. I've talked about this in the book. I've worked with several yogis who snap their hamstrings, like just doing a forward fold. And the rehab process, that was load management. It was like, your hamstring cannot manage any load. So let's teach it to manage load. I talked about a couple of those in the book as well. And then what you said, dude, is this...

planting the seed for growing into something more. It is part of the system that can create all the necessary and sufficient conditions to grow into more. What that more is, I don't exactly know. But we're just taking the next necessary and sufficient step to do what we need to do right now, knowing that that will open up more options in the future.

Dr. Beau (01:26:33.676)

And again, I'll obviously put a link forest for the trees, a new paradigm for health performance and longevity. I have three. yeah. So, I think you and I's book are like identical length. So I knew Kindle and I was like zoom and three. was like, I'd have to go look. So, cause when I honestly, when I got done with my book and then I saw how small it was, when it showed up in the box and print, was like, God, like this looks like, what was the old,

Michael O'Neal (01:26:39.441)

Thank you for reading it, by the way.

Michael O'Neal (01:26:47.542)

really?

Dr. Beau (01:27:01.496)

Reader's Digest or something. was like, man, but that was just my ego taking a hit based on size, which, know, surprise, surprise.

Michael O'Neal (01:27:08.741)

But this is the optimal length for people to actually read it. that like, Yeah. So that, you wanted to apply that, like, what is, how do you write the best evidence-based book? Well, it's gonna have to be Peter Atiyah, know, just a thousand pages long. I got, so I tried to audio book that and I got like the recorded a chapter and I haven't touched it since.

Dr. Beau (01:27:14.52)

Right, especially nowadays. It's actually too long.

Dr. Beau (01:27:29.569)

Yeah.

Dr. Beau (01:27:34.872)

Mine's still on 1 % in Kindle, if that's how you.

Michael O'Neal (01:27:36.433)

Really? Yeah, well, and he said that that was the pared down version. said, he said, yeah, he said, he said, yeah, the first draft just read too much like a textbook. Like, this is what, if you look, I, I, Peter, it's, he has better information in his book than mine guarantee it, but you and I aren't making it through 1 % of it. If people make it through all 120, 30 pages of ours that actually do something with it, then like,

Dr. Beau (01:27:41.54)

Yeah. 300, 300 page cut or something.

Dr. Beau (01:27:48.036)

Which again...

Michael O'Neal (01:28:06.063)

Who's evidence-based? that's the whole forest or the trees. What are the mechanisms that account for biology and human behavior and actually drive people into action so that they can get the outcomes that they at least say they want?

Dr. Beau (01:28:23.076)

Yeah. I mean, that's on the forward of my book is this knowledge and action. Like if you don't act on whatever you took or can't because you didn't take any information because it was such an overload. Yeah. What's it matter? these last two questions and I got one follow-up. ask everybody on the podcast. just, you know, take it wherever you want. what is one thing that you long held true? It doesn't have to be within the health and wellness realm, but if it is, that's okay. And you've, you know, righted, your 180 degrees different on that now.

you know, whether it was a year ago, five years ago, you're just like, God, I used to think this is the way it was and I was so wrong or I learned different.

Michael O'Neal (01:29:29.659)

access to more and better information creates superior outcomes. I used to believe that. I do not believe that anymore.

And I had to sort through about a hundred things that I wanted to choose from to answer that question.

Dr. Beau (01:29:45.08)

So what's the alternative to that then?

Michael O'Neal (01:30:00.377)

I what I just said a consensus approach.

What is the consensus of this community based on the information that is available?

Michael O'Neal (01:30:21.041)

like four out of five doctors agree that blah, blah, blah, blah.

Michael O'Neal (01:30:28.121)

I think that used to work. I don't think that works anymore.

So let's call that a consensus model. The alternative is a resonance model. And a resonance model is a community's ability to rapidly A-B test things.

And so, yeah, of course, well, that's a form of having more and better information. Yes, yes, but when you like that's the broad strokes and then when you break it down. So how do you how do you get more and better information that actually drives superior outcomes? And I don't I don't necessarily think that the consensus model wasn't the best one for the time, but I think that the consensus model is. Too bloated to be useful anymore and a resonance model.

of local networks rapidly A-B testing for problem solving is the way of the future, especially with the rate at which information can be tested and teased out with AI, with pending simulations. That's kind of what I like with my gem.

All the Lane-Norton conversations happen in the context of the consensus model, where my gym is a resonance model. I am doing the A-B testing on a regular basis and figuring out what is effective for my population. Now, can I extrapolate and say that every decision I make for my clients is going to map to be the best decisions for other clients in another context? Like, no, I can't say that, but I'm not trying to say that.

Michael O'Neal (01:32:15.345)

Because I view myself, now if I were a cruise ship and I were making those claims, then that would be a problem. But I specifically position myself to not be that cruise ship. I specifically position my scalp to function within a particular scope of resonance so that I am not claiming to do something I'm not able to do. But I'm...

but trying to position myself in a way where I can grow to claim more over time. Yeah, so I would say a consensus model of information and application versus a resonance model of information and application. That is what I had done a 180 on.

Dr. Beau (01:33:05.218)

Yeah. So the flip side of that question, is there anything that you hold true? You're like, I think this is the way it is, but there isn't any evidence out there. you know, whether that's peer reviewed a book on it, you know, a consensus. They're just like, yeah, that's the way it is. And just, there's nobody that's agreeing with that at this point in time.

Michael O'Neal (01:33:33.967)

I want to have a more context appropriate answer, but the first thing that comes to mind is that aliens are already on earth and they live underwater.

Dr. Beau (01:33:43.672)

I didn't say you had to keep it in the health monastery.

Michael O'Neal (01:33:44.625)

Yeah, yeah, but that was just the first thing that came to mind. I think aliens from other planets and or galaxies are already here and I think that they are underwater and I think that we've likely we've already interacted with them, know, like the octopus or something. They could also be microscopic so we can't see them. What if aliens are microscopic and they're already here?

they're living on the corner of your bedroom rug and they have an entire civilization, but they came from another galaxy. think probability is that, I think they're already here and I think they're either underwater, microscopic or both.

Dr. Beau (01:34:29.966)

Yeah, would also say the last Senate hearing also plays into that as well.

Michael O'Neal (01:34:30.065)

That's it.

Michael O'Neal (01:34:35.631)

Are they talking about that again? When there's something in Mexico where they like unveiled alien bodies a few months ago or like last year? Yeah.

Dr. Beau (01:34:37.72)

Yeah, they are.

Dr. Beau (01:34:44.772)

I haven't seen that. They just did a Senate hearing last week where another, I want to say Navy officer, Navy for sure. don't know what level officer, but he was like, yeah, there's for sure. Like he was talking about an F 22 that got surrounded by six UAPs, which is now what you have to call them. Six UAPs and like, they almost like crashed the plane and he's like, yeah, we have that recorded.

Michael O'Neal (01:35:06.369)

Well, I would consider Congress a consensus model. So based on that information alone, my resonance model would lead me to not believe anything about the alien testimony that's said in Congress.

Dr. Beau (01:35:21.316)

Well, but the one question that really stood out there was they asked specifically, do you think it's a drone? Cause he said a lot of this is probably drone activity. And then he goes, there's about 20 % that's unexplained, which they created also a hotline. It was like a R O P or something, or you can call in like for UAPs, which also shows you how prevalent is because it's probably drone. Then he goes, the other 20 % unexplained. go, what do think that 20 % is? Do you think it's other nations, us reverse engineered technology or other world? And he goes, don't know.

And they go, well, if you had to guess it goes all three. And so it was just kind of an interesting answer. Yeah.

Michael O'Neal (01:35:54.641)

One more quick one. I think it is likely, so everyone's talked about dissimulation, right? And it's kind of boring, like no one really has an interesting approach on it. Do you seem to have a regularly occurring set of problems in your life that follow a particular theme?

Dr. Beau (01:36:17.516)

Yeah, but I think that's my own doing. literally am writing a blog about that right now. Yeah.

Michael O'Neal (01:36:21.379)

Okay, well, let me give you an alternative explanation for that. You are a simulation character and the function of your existence is to A-B test how to problem solve for that problem in the whatever world programmed you.

Dr. Beau (01:36:41.22)

Did you watch or listen to the Joe Rogan episode with Brian Cox, astrophysicist, that talks about this?

Michael O'Neal (01:36:46.225)

No, but I see clips from him and I just saw one where he was like, you could travel the speed of light, then you could travel to another galaxy, but you couldn't come back and tell anyone about it because it'd be like four million years. It's like you could travel to another galaxy in 27 seconds, but by the time you got back, it would be four million years. But what did he say?

Dr. Beau (01:37:10.158)

The craziest and anybody that's still listening at this point like thanks for sticking with us But the craziest thing I was just talking to Sloan my wife for anybody that was no last night about this That have you seen the like a laser level experiment where people took DMT? Have you seen you know, I'm talking about it all So they take a laser level so it's beaming a laser across a drywall like a drywall wall and There on DMT was the original experiment and they look at this laser and everybody

Michael O'Neal (01:37:32.753)

Okay.

Dr. Beau (01:37:38.926)

There was like 1500 people in this experiment and it's interesting because he commented on it. He's a Cambridge trained astrophysicist. They all see code. Every one them like says the exact same thing across the board without being cued up on what to see. They look at this laser, like matrix code, like code raining. Yeah, whatever the code. So he brings this up because Brian Cox brings up simulation theory, Jorgens, like you've seen these videos of people. goes, yeah. And just like completely like.

Michael O'Neal (01:37:53.083)

Like one.

One zero, one zero, one zero, okay.

Dr. Beau (01:38:08.388)

whether it's confirming or he's like, yeah, that's, that's a thing. And I was like, what? mean, it was just one of those like, and then he brought up the thought of, they're on DMT and he goes, well, they're actually have and are doing studies with people that are not, know, to, you know, basically RCT that it was just crazy stuff like that. Or I tell my wife, she's like, I don't want to think about it. That's, don't want it. I don't think.

Michael O'Neal (01:38:27.601)

Yeah, so how about this? The idea that things, and this applies to history as well. Everything that's observable and even observable history, like artifacts, they're only observable because we are attempting to observe them. Like they are, the idea that they are rendered on demand as we approach observing them, like the edge of the map of the video game. Like you can't go beyond the edge of the map, but if you're...

you know, falling through the sky, like you see the animation pop up, like as you get closer to it. So part of the reason that there is so much discrepancy among historians and there is so much discrepancy even among human accounts of events and human memories, presently, so not even past, is because whatever engine, whatever processor we're running on would require too much bandwidth.

for everyone to be able to account for the same events the same way. So if we just have discrepancy among our memories, but that is the norm, then we just get to argue about who remembers something right or who's more evidence-based when as a matter of fact, the discrepancy of memories is just a way to save on bandwidth because the entire processor could not accommodate. Like render it kit, there's no reason for it to expend resources.

rendering the moon if no one is able to look at it. But once the moon is observable to us, like it's observable because it's, well now we're rendering it because they can't observe it and they expect to observe it.

Dr. Beau (01:39:58.531)

one.

Dr. Beau (01:40:07.746)

Now you're actually playing back into the conversation of when I brought up like Darren Brown. So if you think about, you know, we've are a lot of people have heard about the default mode network and like how much your prefrontal cortex is actually shutting down incoming input, right. And creating whatever you're experiencing that point in time versus, know, now the Brian Cox talked about this as well. You know, the overarching theory is that like it's, it's a dampening effect. That's what your prefrontal cortex is. not a grabbing effect. And that.

that dampening effect, you know, we don't know what we don't know. We can't see the microscopic beings. We can't see all this other stuff that's actually occurring. But then that plays right back into to try to bring this back home. You know, the experience of pain or perception of movement or previous experiences, previous injuries. And that's where it gets really, if I have to sometimes stop this stop process, because it like leads me to a point of no action, right? I said like one of my monitors.

Michael O'Neal (01:41:06.426)

Yeah.

Dr. Beau (01:41:07.234)

like knowledge and action, because you think if, wait a minute, if everything can come down to, you're just not allowing that thing to be processed or you're allowing that thing to be processed over and over or in a certain fashion or tied to certain emotions. It gets really down to why am I doing X, Y, in that treatment room or in the gym when I should be tinkering with that mechanism. And I think there's going to be a lot more explored in that realm in the next five to 10 years for sure, because we'll be able to use, as you said,

you know, propped up AI simulations in that kind of avenue, because you can't do those types of experiments on people because you'll probably leave them, you know, partially lobotomized. But it'll be very interesting, but I toy with that all the time of like, God is all the hands-on and movement-based stuff. Because I don't know if you've ever heard of, you know, the name Giancarlo Russo. He's a Rome-based physiotherapist, hypnotist. So one of the most interesting people I've ever met in my life, because he literally

Michael O'Neal (01:41:46.619)

you

Dr. Beau (01:42:06.232)

will hypnotize somebody with like, you know, 10 out of 10 sciatic pain. They got a, you know, positive straight leg raise on the table. It lit up, puts them, know, puts them in a, you know, hypnotic state. No presentation of that takes them through a straight leg raise like 20 times. I wake up gone. So when I see something like that, you immediately have to start at least questioning like, what in the hell is going on? Because we've got all these fancy first principles. And again, that's where I say we, it's only the

Information at hand, but then I think the best in the world are always questioning Why does that work if this is what we believe and then you that's how you keep pruning or sharpening the sword? Yeah, that stuff's wild to me and I just don't know what to do with it right now I don't know if we'll ever do anything with it. That's my thought

Michael O'Neal (01:42:42.085)

Mm-hmm.

Michael O'Neal (01:42:51.609)

Here's how I alleviated some of my anxiety about the need to be correct.

Michael O'Neal (01:42:59.863)

Everything is probabilities.

I try to interface at the level of probabilities.

Michael O'Neal (01:43:09.391)

versus this is right or this is wrong. And the benefit is as you stack more and more probabilities, then you will approach a pattern of rightness that is more reliable. I think that fits the resonance model, your rapid A-B testing. But framing a lot of my decisions as probability-based rather than evidence-based or certainty-based.

Because like what evidence-based, you could argue like that should, should, my least favorite word, like enough evidence-based practice put together like should yield a reliable probability-based practice. But the problem is the evidence is applied as, it worked for this cohort, it'll work for your cohort. No, like the evidence is part of a pool of probabilities. And if you judge yourself as a provider,

based on your ability to get any particular situation right or wrong, eventually you're going to be wrong enough that you'll quit or you have to develop some sort of psychological mechanism to, or cognitive dissonance, or you have to rely on, well, I'm right more than I'm wrong, which is ultimately what? A probability. So if you can frame everything as a probability, then it's

Dr. Beau (01:44:22.722)

drinking habit.

Dr. Beau (01:44:28.866)

Right. Confirmation by.

Michael O'Neal (01:44:35.483)

takes away the counterproductive moral judgment on yourself as a provider. And it also takes away a lot of the arrogance that you can develop as a provider. Like, I got it right. Well, you played the probabilities correctly, and that is your job. So you're really like, you're not right or wrong. You're an arbiter of probabilities. And if you are effective, if you're an effective arbiter of probabilities, then

you will create a net positive effect on the people who you are interacting with.

Dr. Beau (01:45:09.828)

So what we found out is you are a gambling man and that's what I'm taking away from this entire podcast.

Michael O'Neal (01:45:16.355)

I will if I well I Have no I'll say too much. There's not about me. It is about someone

I have a client who has a very good job, but he says his real job starts during sports season. And interestingly enough, the way he approaches everything is a systematic probability based proprietary that he created. So he will bet on every pro game that is played every weekend and he will bet on select college games. He has been doing this for several years.

And he, like I said, he has a good job, but he tells me that his real job starts in the fall. But it's all probabilities system based. It's not, man, my gut, man, I feel like this team. blah, blah, blah is, it is. And he doesn't win every game, but in the betting world, you do not have to win every game. You have to win enough and you have to allocate your units appropriately.

That is how the system works. It is a dispassionate mathematical probability based system. And I think flipping, you don't want to remove the human aspect from what you do, but there is a lot of value in being able to adopt a frame of like dispassionate probability based action.

Dr. Beau (01:46:50.884)

Yeah, it takes a lot of the getting your teeth kicked in every day with, you know, poor outcomes, which is just the reality of being in this business. If we're talking about, you know, pain relief, you know, movement change, I mean, that's just how it goes. Cause you're dealing with humans. it's messy pattern recognition, you know, like one of my favorite books on this topic is kind of black swan is like, we do a pretty good job at like seeing the patterns that we're used to play out. But then when a pattern breaks, a lot of people tend to just throw that pattern out. Like you said, like I do good most times.

Michael O'Neal (01:47:20.123)

Yeah.

Dr. Beau (01:47:20.13)

And then it's knowing when to pay attention to that kind of outlier. Like, does that matter? Does that mean anything? Should I explore that? was like, that's like you said, that's playing the probable, you know, outcomes. And again, back to a big framework that we try to create in here, both from a clinic and when, you know, work I do outside of here is like, we're trying to create good clinicians. mean, that's ultimately what we're doing. Right. And that's somebody that a help somebody, but also doesn't take advantage of somebody. And at end of the day, like,

Being a good clinician, which gets back to the first question I asked you, like what's better, is like that's what we're asking. Like what actually makes a good clinician, right? Is it good human management skills? Is it good clinical skills? Is it diagnostic skills? It's obviously an amalgam of those, but it's usually not what most people think it is or were taught in school.

Michael O'Neal (01:48:06.105)

Yeah, well, and interfacing at the level of probabilities. I forgot the second half of my sentence. That's okay.

Dr. Beau (01:48:19.108)

50-50.

Michael O'Neal (01:48:20.045)

Yeah, that's pretty well what going to say.

Yeah, I know. It's It's escaped me now. It must not have been that important.

Dr. Beau (01:48:29.464)

You're good. Well, hey, we kind of went off the reservation there at the end, but that's actually more fun for me.

Michael O'Neal (01:48:35.729)

Maybe that could be the behind the paywall upgrade section for your podcast. If you want to hear more. Yeah. Yes, I think you could go to a tiered subscription. You've been podcasting for like 10 years now, haven't you?

Dr. Beau (01:48:43.032)

Just tease the microscopic UFO theory or alien theory.

Dr. Beau (01:48:56.236)

Yeah, on and off and that's, you I do it for me, honestly. Like it's one of those things. Like I thought in the beginning I was doing it for an authority grab. And then I realized like, I just like talking to people and I gain a lot of it or a lot out of it, both from like actually learning something specific, but also just talking with people within the field. yeah, it'd cool if it blew up. I'm not going to be like, no, I wanted to stay small. Like that's in my game, but like, yeah, I've just been doing it on and off to have fun with it. Yeah.

Michael O'Neal (01:49:25.455)

Cool. Thank you for having me on. This has been the best. I've been on a single digit number, but this has been the most enjoyable for me. Yeah.

Dr. Beau (01:49:40.174)

Cool, man. Well, it's, mean, I've talked to you in person and we've known each other. So my last question is, before I let you go here, know you've gone long. Are you training for anything? So the last time I saw you in person was Exterra, right? And we actually, just had a meeting with the Exterra staff yesterday. So are you gonna do that again this year? Or you got anything coming up that you're training for in the endurance world in particular?

Michael O'Neal (01:49:45.229)

yeah, we have that third question.

Michael O'Neal (01:50:02.565)

high rocks in April.

Dr. Beau (01:50:04.545)

Okay, all right, so you're going all legit hybrid, huh?

Michael O'Neal (01:50:07.985)

High Rocks Miami, April 19th as someone who is a weak runner. It's triathlon is like you can hedge. man, better, but yeah, it a short, was a 5K. Like you can dive through a 5K. Like you can be like zone 5B.

Dr. Beau (01:50:27.202)

Yeah. And that was a short run. Yeah.

Michael O'Neal (01:50:37.239)

and you can just keep going for a 5k and that sucks. If you're decent on the swim, adequate on the bike, dive through the 5k, if you cannot run, don't show up to high rocks. So I'm putting myself in a position where if I am not running regularly and I've been running more than I've ever been,

without any injury. like when I, the first time I started running several years ago, like I had like a nine to 11 minute mark where my old right hip would flare up. Like I would just have stop, right, I'd have to walk. So I wasn't even thinking in terms of like heart rate based training, threshold, it was just like, can I run for 15 minutes without my hip hurting? So like the fact that I'm even able in a position to train,

a running intensive event and get to play with the heart rate and the threshold. And I'm not quite pricking my finger in between intervals yet like the Norwegians. But the fact that I've gotten to enter that world as someone who was getting nerve block injections as a 17 year old and missing an extra point in the biggest rivalry game of the year because of the pain and wondering like,

Am I going to end up like my grandfather who has had double hip replacement? I have only been better every decade of my life from teens, better in my 20s than I was in my teens. I'm 33 now. I'm better in my 30s than I was in my 20s. I plan to be better in my 40s than I was in my 30s. Yeah, so it's really cool that I can look at a running intensive event.

and say, I'm like, I'm going to train for this. I'm a weak runner, but I know like, I, you're a weak runner, it's because you just haven't run enough. You know, like strength, can, you can, you can exhaust like 90 % of your strength potential in a couple of years, but with endurance it's, is years. It is. So I've started running more regularly last year and about a year end or running.

Michael O'Neal (01:52:56.165)

multiple times a week and it's, it can be tough because you don't see that light switch progress that you see in the gym. But compared to where I was last year, I feel so much better. And I know maybe, maybe I can be the heaviest, the heaviest finisher with whatever time that I finish. I don't know, we'll see.

Dr. Beau (01:53:21.39)

Do you have a goal time for the HiRox?

Michael O'Neal (01:53:23.535)

Yeah, I haven't looked into it too deeply. I know the world records like 54. And I read that like most people who are in shape can probably do about 90 minutes. That's realistic. So what I'm doing, I'm pretty much running a half marathon training plan. And then, because it's like it's it's running there.

The reason I gas out in high rocks won't be because of the thousand meter rope. It won't be because of the sandbag lunges that are like 65 pounds. If I gas out at high rocks, it will be because I suck at running. So if I run, basically train for a half marathon, make sure that my volume and intensity is appropriate, know about what pace I'll be able to hold. I'm hoping for the 90 minute range for my first line, but we'll see.

Dr. Beau (01:54:19.33)

Yeah. Yeah. Amen. Well, keep me updated on that. And again, thank you for coming on here to said I'll be linking to Michael's book and social media, which is O'Neill health. Any last words of wisdom or anything else you'd like to tell before we jump off here?

Michael O'Neal (01:54:41.521)

Yeah, I just appreciate being on. I've talked a lot. I think I've said that all I need to say, I appreciate you inviting. I appreciate you inviting me on because I know that you have, you have built a platform over the last several years. and there is a lot of, you have put a lot of yourself into that platform. Like less. Yes, you have the farm, but like the farm is your, that is, I, as someone who

has started his own thing recently. Like I, I appreciate,

I appreciate being invited into that fold. It's because I know how I am about inviting people into the fold and I am not as established as you and your operation are. So thank you for inviting me into that fold. I appreciate it.

Dr. Beau (01:55:33.732)

Yeah, man, you're a great resource for people to learn from. So go check out the book. check out any other podcasts that Michael's been on and yeah, we'll maybe we'll catch some social media posts and we'll I'm starting a new like thought dump blog area. so maybe we'll get back on and talk about like hybrid training or high rock specific stuff at some point and kind of just do a real nerd out session on that, but we'll see.